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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 21 hours ago #58926

  • CarlosdelJunco
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Hello,

I'm new here and and reading about the impressive specs of the SHD and considering getting one, but still totally confused (I've emailed the minDSP sales team twice since the first time and not heard back about this) if when using saved Dirac Live user presets loaded into the SHD - if everything gets downsampled to 48 kHz? I've also looked thru various posts and not found a clear answer. I'm hoping someone can give a clear answer for this. The is nothing mentioned about this in the SHD manual or specs.

Also, might anyone know about this:

1. Is there any potential issue to be concerned with when linking 3 digital units together (“jitter” being introduced, "timing" between 3 pieces of digital hardware..?) 

2. Does the length of digital coax or Toslink cable influence response and timing?

3. Is coax generally preferred over Toslink for digital connectors?

Thanks!

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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 20 hours ago #58927

  • Ultrasonic
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I think the product page and manual don't say anything about downsampling to 48 kHz because it doesn't happen, but it's not something I've ever seen a categoric statement on or tried to test.

What exactly do you have in mind with your question 1?

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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 20 hours ago #58928

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Thanks Ultrasonic for your quick reply!

To be totally clear, you are saying that saved Dirac Live user presets loaded into the SHD work at 96 kHz?   ...then is it only the Dirac Live room testing with mic that is limited to 48 kHz? As you say, "it's not something I've ever seen a categoric statement on or tried to test." So you are not totally sure either? I do stream with Tidal and at times enjoy their Masters series which streams at 96k. Hence my questions about potential downsampling.

Regarding my 3 questions, what I have in mind is this: I have a BluOS Node 2 streamer going Coax digital into a Prismsound Callia DAC then analogue out into an (older early 80's) Meridan preamp then into a recently acquired Dynaudio S18 sub (which has DSP processing to help tune the sub) then out to my (older early 80's)  Meridian mono 100W block power amps and into some Harbeth C7ES speakers. I realize than I’m somewhat defeating the purpose of the Callia DAC (for the Harbeth speakers) now as I lose the it’s DAC processing when going into another ADC and DAC conversion running thru the Dynaudio subwoofer and then onto the power amps and Harbeths.

SO, the one response and suggestion I did get from someone at minDSP was to route (a yet unpurchased SHD) like this:

"Node 2 Coax Digital Out > SHD Coax In > SHD Dirac Live Room Correction > SHD Coax Digital Output 1/2 > Prismsound Callia high end DAC > Meridian 2 x mono block power amps > Left&Right speakers. 

For the sub, we would use the SHD analogue Output 3.
" (he'd originally said to use the SHD coax digital out into the sub until I found out all the ins and outs of the sub are all analogue and converted to digital internal and back to analogue out. The SHD give me the option of both analogue and digital outs which is great)

This way I'd have the DAC of the Callia now working and going to my Harbeth speakers and the ability to still do my PEQs and crossovers first on the SHD for both the Harbeths and the sub.

...AND this would be the 3 digital units hooked up one aft the other id referred to in my original post...without knowing a lot about "timing" and "jitter", just wondering if there may be any unforeseen issues?

 Other than being a little nervous of losing some of the analogue warmth of the Meridian preamp, this does all make sense - but just wondering if there are any things to consider before dropping over $1800 Canadian for the SHD (after shipping, import taxes, etc) and hence my questions about digital cables, lengths, types...that might introduce any potential unforeseen issues.

Thanks again, Carlos

                                                                                                                                   
 

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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 8 hours ago #58937

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Node > SHD is possible, but why don't you sell the Node? The SHD streaming function is at least as good as the Node. 

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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 6 hours ago #58938

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Node > SHD is possible, but why don't you sell the Node? The SHD streaming function is at least as good as the Node. 

Many people would prefer the BluOS interface over Volumio, so possibly that's the reason?
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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 5 hours ago #58941

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I do stream with Tidal and at times enjoy their Masters series which streams at 96k. Hence my questions about potential downsampling.
 

Specifically with this point I'd check whether the Node outputs 'unfolded' MQA data via its digital output or not. I suspect it may not, and if so you may be better off using its analogue outputs instead for MQA files. Or ditching Tidal and replacing it with Qobuz if you have the option where you live, and the music library works for you. Then you'd get proper high-res. if this is something that interests you.

On your other points I think it's important to distinguish between music file sample rate and the measurement data and adjustments that Dirac Live will apply. The DL software only deals with frequencies up to 20 kHz so whether a measurement microphone may use 48 kHz sample rate or higher doesn't really make any difference. Personally I only use Dirac below around 200 Hz anyway actually. 

The digital connections you mentioned will work fine.
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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 5 hours ago #58944

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Node > SHD is possible, but why don't you sell the Node? The SHD streaming function is at least as good as the Node. 

Many people would prefer the BluOS interface over Volumio, so possibly that's the reason?

 

I've been running trials of Audirvana and JRiver and have found that there are quite acceptable alternatives to Volumio.

Up until last year, I was using a Lumin streamer with the Lumin App using the SPDIF input to the SHD. I have sold that equipment in order to simplify. I had resigned myself to using Volumio. I since found that the network card on my SHD is quite adequate - using Audirvana or JRiver - for a stress free remote iOS solution to accessing my local NAS music files. In addition, Audirvana has the features that incorporate Tidal and Qobuz if that matters to you.

Neither Audirvana or JRiver are free though, whereas Volumio is. Audirvana requires a subscription and JRiver is a one time purchase. If you ever owned a copy of JRiver you do not have to buy another one. They maintain a database of old builds. Unfortunately, Audirvana does not and their Remote app requires the subscription. Both can run on Macs or Windows computers with their remote applications running on a phone or iPad. Of course, there is always ROON as well, but that is an even pricier subscription format.

If you dislike Volumio, I would highly recommend either Audirvana or JRiver. Set up the SHD / Volumio interface on your browser as usual, set the plugins for DLNA and you never have to deal with Volumio's clunky interface again.

Bottom line, if the OP wishes to use his Node device because of the BlueOS app environment, there are alternatives that allow a simpler setup.
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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 4 hours ago #58945

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I mostly use Bubble upnp on my Android phone myself, although Volumio if I'm using my laptop. 

BluOS also opens up more streaming service options I believe.
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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 4 hours ago #58946

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Yes, Bubble upnp is another choice for Android users, but if I recall it requires Bubbleup Server installed and it is not free.

If streaming services are all that you do, none of this matters.
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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 3 hours ago #58948

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Hi Ultrasonic,Thanks (and to the others for your replies!). I’d spent over 30 minutes composing a rather lengthy reply and hit the submit button …. and it seems to have disappeared into the ether, not sure if it was because I’d tried to attach a photo.I’ll certainly consider all the JRiver option recommended by rodrigaj - thank you.Regarding Tidal vs Qobuz, I’ve invested already so much time creating extensive playlists of any given artists’s entire uploaded CD catalogue that the thought of switching from Tidal to Qobuz seems daunting.Anyway, I’ll try and keep this reply a bit shorter. Ultrasonic, when you wrote:“I think it's important to distinguish between music file sample rate and the measurement data and adjustments that Dirac Live will apply. The DL software only deals with frequencies up to 20 kHz so whether a measurement microphone may use 48 kHz sample rate or higher doesn't really make any difference. Personally I only use Dirac below around 200 Hz anyway actually.”I also only really want to tame the frequencies up to around 200 Hz as I’ve heard that using DRC DSP software can introduce other problems in the mid and higher frequencies.I think what is confusing me is the difference between the music streaming SAMPLING RATE vs the audible FREQUENCY rate (between 20 and 20 kHz). What I don’t understand is if using a Dirac Live PEQ SAVED USER PRESETS when streaming music at 96kHz -  gets downsampled to 48 kHz. Is that what happens?I’m a slow learner but once I “get it” it (usually) sticks!   :-)

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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 3 hours ago #58949

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Apologies for the lack of paragraph formatting, will try this again when copying and pasting from my Mac Textedit app:Hi Ultrasonic,
 Thanks (and to the others for your replies!). I’d spent over 30 minutes composing a rather lengthy reply and hit the submit button …. and it seems to have disappeared into the ether, not sure if it was because I’d tried to attach a photo.
 I’ll certainly consider all the JRiver option recommended by rodrigaj - thank you.
 Regarding Tidal vs Qobuz, I’ve invested already so much time creating extensive playlists of any given artists’s entire uploaded CD catalogue that the thought of switching from Tidal to Qobuz seems daunting.
 Anyway, I’ll try and keep this reply a bit shorter. Ultrasonic, when you wrote:“I think it's important to distinguish between music file sample rate and the measurement data and adjustments that Dirac Live will apply. The DL software only deals with frequencies up to 20 kHz so whether a measurement microphone may use 48 kHz sample rate or higher doesn't really make any difference. Personally I only use Dirac below around 200 Hz anyway actually.”
 I also only really want to tame the frequencies up to around 200 Hz as I’ve heard that using DRC DSP software can introduce other problems in the mid and higher frequencies.
 I think what is confusing me is the difference between the music streaming SAMPLING RATE vs the audible FREQUENCY rate (between 20 and 20 kHz). What I don’t understand is if using a Dirac Live PEQ SAVED USER PRESETS when streaming music at 96kHz -  gets downsampled to 48 kHz. Is that what happens?
 I’m a slow learner but once I “get it” it (usually) sticks!   :-)

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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 1 hour ago #58952

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DL typically does correction to just below 20kHz or lower if you move  the limit down. It doesn't affect sample rate, just nothng is corrected above 20kHz. All DL provides are filters to be implemented by the SHD. SHD always runs at 96kHz and inputs are asynchronously resampled to 96kHz.
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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 1 hour ago #58953

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Yes, Bubble upnp is another choice for Android users, but if I recall it requires Bubbleup Server installed and it is not free.

If streaming services are all that you do, none of this matters.

There is a free version with minimal adverts. The paid version is only £4 (so I'd guess 4-5 US$).

I don't have any locally stored music files and in this context didn't have to install anything other than the app on my phone.

 
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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 4 months 39 minutes ago #58955

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Apologies for the lack of paragraph formatting, will try this again when copying and pasting from my Mac Textedit app:Hi Ultrasonic,
 Thanks (and to the others for your replies!). I’d spent over 30 minutes composing a rather lengthy reply and hit the submit button …. and it seems to have disappeared into the ether, not sure if it was because I’d tried to attach a photo.
 I’ll certainly consider all the JRiver option recommended by rodrigaj - thank you.
 Regarding Tidal vs Qobuz, I’ve invested already so much time creating extensive playlists of any given artists’s entire uploaded CD catalogue that the thought of switching from Tidal to Qobuz seems daunting.
 Anyway, I’ll try and keep this reply a bit shorter. Ultrasonic, when you wrote:“I think it's important to distinguish between music file sample rate and the measurement data and adjustments that Dirac Live will apply. The DL software only deals with frequencies up to 20 kHz so whether a measurement microphone may use 48 kHz sample rate or higher doesn't really make any difference. Personally I only use Dirac below around 200 Hz anyway actually.”
 I also only really want to tame the frequencies up to around 200 Hz as I’ve heard that using DRC DSP software can introduce other problems in the mid and higher frequencies.
 I think what is confusing me is the difference between the music streaming SAMPLING RATE vs the audible FREQUENCY rate (between 20 and 20 kHz). What I don’t understand is if using a Dirac Live PEQ SAVED USER PRESETS when streaming music at 96kHz -  gets downsampled to 48 kHz. Is that what happens?
 I’m a slow learner but once I “get it” it (usually) sticks!   :-)

First up there are way to transfer playlists etc between streaming services. I've not used one and they cost a small amount but it's for you to bear in mind. In the UK Qobuz is a lot cheaper than Tidal's MQA tier and offers genuine high-res content.

On an SHD there is PEQ functionality within the miniDSP plugin that is fully independent of Dirac Live. The filters that Dirac Live uses are more advanced. 

I tried to answer your downsampling question as best I could in my first post so do read that again. I have no reason to believe that Dirac Live on the SHD downsamples below 96 kHz but I am not able to give you a categoric answer.

My take on the above concerns is one of prioritising what makes the biggest difference. In my room the benefits of Dirac Live to help manage room mode effects in the low bass region is huge, whereas I'd place the differences between 44.1 kHz or 96 kHz sample rates as somewhere in the marginal to non-existent range. Recording quality is far more important, and you can get good and bad recordings at all sample rates. Oh, and the SHD (not Dirac) also gives you the means to properly integrate your sub which again is much more significant that high-res in my humble opinion.

Is there anywhere you could get an SHD to demo in Canada?
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SHD - saved Dirac Live EQ presets only come out at 48 kHz? & digital cables 3 months 2 weeks ago #59151

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Hi Ultrasonic or anyone else with a quick answer!  :-)

Many thanks for your answers. I tried numerous times to reply and kept getting flagged. So keeping this super simple without links to other sites. I just put a couple new posts about sub integration with main speakers and hoping someone could point me to a good video that clearly shows an accurate method for measuring proper phase and time alignment between 2 speakers and a subwoofer. 

I saw one video that explained an auto time alignment feature in REW. Has anyone had good results using the auto time alignment feature of REW? It seems quite different than the methods explained in the articles explained  in the miniDSP website to integrate and balance 2 speakers with a sub.

thanks in advance! Carlos

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