Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
NOTE: This is a "Community" forum. Please be mindful that community members are here to help as part of a community effort. We therefore appreciate your effort in keeping this forum a happy place!

If you have a specific issue (e.g. hardware, failure) and want help from our support team, please use our tech support portal (Support menu - > Contact Us).
Thanks a lot of your help in making a better community.

TOPIC:

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57306

  • chad2057
  • chad2057's Avatar
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 7
  • Thank you received: 0
As I said, filtering the mains has supporters and detractors -among them, REL they recommend getting the sub signal from the speakers output, PS-Audio indicated they don't favor limiting the main speakers.

My opinion is to decide for yourself. Ideally somebody else should switch the settings for you and you should try to detect any change (for the better). Same applies with the time alignment.

I am currently doing something similar, testing Dirac Live, and will decide it it's worth the expense compared to the improvements it brings to my system.

 

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57307

  • Ultrasonic
  • Ultrasonic's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2280
  • Thank you received: 463

As I said, filtering the mains has supporters and detractors -among them, REL they recommend getting the sub signal from the speakers output, PS-Audio indicated they don't favor limiting the main speakers.


 

RELs perspective is actually a little different than specifically focusing on high-pass filtering, since it is more usually expressed as a preference for high-level vs low level connections. Personaly I struggle with their advocated preference for high-level connections being anything other than a commercially driven one. They are one of the few manufacturers that offer this, and they're largely marketing to traditional audiophiles for whom this is frequently the only option available.

Logically using high-level connections if a line level connection is available makes zero sense to me. When you just have main speakers you send a line level signal to a power amp stage and then on to the speaker drivers. Exactly the same happens when sending a line-level signal to an active subwoofer. With a high level connection you start with a line level signal, increase it to the level needed to drive speakers, then reduce it back down to essentially line level, and finally pass it through the power amp stage of the sub to it's driver. How the additional steps can be argued to have a positive effect on sound quality is beyond me.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Ultrasonic.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57308

  • asx77
  • asx77's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 599
  • Thank you received: 105
Agree. I thought the USP for RELs was that they can receive both high and low level input signals at the same time which is advantageous in a theatre setup where you might not want to put a filter on your mains, yet have the sub supplement them, meanwhile allowing the full LFE signal plus any signal from speakers set to small to be sent to the sub via RCA.
Warning: Just because I'm a 'Platinum' member, doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about... It just means I've asked too many questions!!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57309

  • Ultrasonic
  • Ultrasonic's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2280
  • Thank you received: 463

Agree. I thought the USP for RELs was that they can receive both high and low level input signals at the same time which is advantageous in a theatre setup where you might not want to put a filter on your mains, yet have the sub supplement them, meanwhile allowing the full LFE signal plus any signal from speakers set to small to be sent to the sub via RCA.

I actually have a BK Electronics Monolith subwoofer sitting in my hallway (waiting to be sold) that does just this too. It was a while ago now but BK used to be an OEM for REL in the UK, which is presumably where this commonality of connection options stems from. What I did myself when I used this sub was to just use a simple RCA switch box to change what line-level signal was sent to the sub for music or movie use. I use the same switch now with my PSA sub, which only has a line-level input.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57310

  • asx77
  • asx77's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 599
  • Thank you received: 105
And apparently if you have an older sub in need of repair B&K are the ones to contact! 

Where are you listing you sub?

 
Warning: Just because I'm a 'Platinum' member, doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about... It just means I've asked too many questions!!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57311

  • Ultrasonic
  • Ultrasonic's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2280
  • Thank you received: 463

Where are you listing you sub?

 

Currently? Nowhere. It's been sitting in my hallway for over a year now! COVID related restrictions stopped me trying to sell it when first became surplus to requirements. I'll probably get round to selling it soon, most likely via AVForums. I post with the same username there if you're interested and want to message me about this (I live in the southwest and wouldn't fancy posting it).

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Ultrasonic.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57328

  • Ataraxia
  • Ataraxia's Avatar
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 4
  • Thank you received: 0
So am I understanding correctly from this thread that if I wished to use an SHD or Studio with an integrated amp analog input such as a Yamaha AS2200/3200, or coax/toslink input to a Hegel, etc. this would be acceptable for Dirac corrected music streaming?

The diagrams show the SHD and Studio using power amps.  Is it substandard to have two preamps and or two DACS in the chain using integrated amps?

Thanks

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Ataraxia.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57329

  • asx77
  • asx77's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 599
  • Thank you received: 105
You've understood correctly. You can connect that way but you loose the ability to set a crossover between the speakers and sub and lose ability to adjust the timings between the them.

In that respect it is substandard but if you mean substandard from a sound quality or colouration perspective fear not, you can safely consider (in that configuration) the SHD to be a source rather than a pre-amp,
Warning: Just because I'm a 'Platinum' member, doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about... It just means I've asked too many questions!!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ataraxia

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57330

  • Ataraxia
  • Ataraxia's Avatar
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 4
  • Thank you received: 0

You've understood correctly. You can connect that way but you loose the ability to set a crossover between the speakers and sub and lose ability to adjust the timings between the them.

In that respect it is substandard but if you mean substandard from a sound quality or colouration perspective fear not, you can safely consider (in that configuration) the SHD to be a source rather than a pre-amp,

Thanks.  I guess by substandard I mean is it a lot better to just use a stand alone amp.  I haven't purchsed yet but would really like to use the Yamaha AS2200 or 3200.

Since those are analog in only, I would connect the sub to the SHD or SHD Studio and retain sub DSP..

I guess using the digital out to an integrated is where I would lose the ability to DSP the sub.. 

I haven't purchased yet, just looking at options for implementing Dirac into a really good 2 channel music listening upgrade over my Yamaha A2080 AVR with YPAO.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Ataraxia.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57331

  • asx77
  • asx77's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 599
  • Thank you received: 105
If you intend to use the yamaha to control volume then the sub must be connected to the yamaha NOT the SHD. If you don't then when you change the volume on the integrated your speaker volume will change but your subs volume won't. 
Warning: Just because I'm a 'Platinum' member, doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about... It just means I've asked too many questions!!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ultrasonic, Ataraxia

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57332

  • Ataraxia
  • Ataraxia's Avatar
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 4
  • Thank you received: 0

If you intend to use the yamaha to control volume then the sub must be connected to the yamaha NOT the SHD. If you don't then when you change the volume on the integrated your speaker volume will change but your subs volume won't.
 

I should have thought that through, makes sense.  The Yamaha integrated might not be ideal then for Dirac implementation with a sub.  I know I can use the line level on my Rythmik from the A2200/3200 but lose best Dirac sub integration.

Connecting SHD digital in to an integrated might not be ideal for sub integration either, I'm not sure how the high/low pass would work on the integrated when running Dirac. 

 

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57333

  • asx77
  • asx77's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 599
  • Thank you received: 105
As a rule of thumb, if the miniDSP isn’t controlling volume then sub integration is not optimised. Even with SHD studio you have the same volume control, crossover and timing issue. If your integrated has its own crossover setting and dedicated sub out that’s a bit different. I can’t remember but there was an Arcam stereo receiver that had a dedicated sub out. There may be more like that now. 

but if you haven’t bought the integrated, why not go straight for a power amp or if you want an integrated, why not get one that lets you configure one of the inputs as a theatre pass through which means it avoids the integrated’s pre-amp in which case you use the miniDSP for music/streaming, volume control and sub integration. 
Warning: Just because I'm a 'Platinum' member, doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about... It just means I've asked too many questions!!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ataraxia

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57335

  • Ataraxia
  • Ataraxia's Avatar
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 4
  • Thank you received: 0

As a rule of thumb, if the miniDSP isn’t controlling volume then sub integration is not optimised. Even with SHD studio you have the same volume control, crossover and timing issue. If your integrated has its own crossover setting and dedicated sub out that’s a bit different. I can’t remember but there was an Arcam stereo receiver that had a dedicated sub out. There may be more like that now. 

but if you haven’t bought the integrated, why not go straight for a power amp or if you want an integrated, why not get one that lets you configure one of the inputs as a theatre pass through which means it avoids the integrated’s pre-amp in which case you use the miniDSP for music/streaming, volume control and sub integration. 

 

It seems a stand alone amp may be the way to go.  My goal is to implement Dirac in stereo setup and upgrade my amplification for a future speaker upgrade to say, KEF Reference 1 or 3. 

I currently have KEF R3 and LS50 Meta which would also benefit from amplification upgrade from my Yamaha A2080 AVR.

I also wanted to keep the Yamaha sound signature and excellent aesthetic with a silver A2200/3200 as well as just have a versatile piece of gear for the long run I can use in different situations.  At this time ideally it would be able to integrate my Yamaha A2080 in HT bypass using the minidsp SHD streaming/Dirac, and direct sub connection for music only. 

The A2200/3200 does have direct power amp balanced analog in (or unbalanced of course) for use with the SHD analog out (and keep sub connected to SHD) but then I'd have to connect the AVR to pre-amped line in which may not be practical for movie volume setting (I'd then just have a separate sub connected to the AVR for movies).

I am keeping straight power amps in mind.  I have seen some like the Musical Fidelity M6SPRX that have the balanced or line in switchable so I can plug in SHD to balanced in (sub connected to SHD) and AVR to amp unbalanced in (and an additional sub to AVR).  

Thanks for the input 
 

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Ataraxia.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57336

  • asx77
  • asx77's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 599
  • Thank you received: 105
You don’t necessarily need two subs if the sub you have has two rca inputs e.g. L & R. Send the SHD to the L and AVR to the R. 
Warning: Just because I'm a 'Platinum' member, doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about... It just means I've asked too many questions!!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ataraxia

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

SHD as DAC only 1 year 1 month ago #57437

  • eisenb11
  • eisenb11's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 77
  • Thank you received: 12

I should perhaps add that in my personal experience, the benefits of being able to high-pass main speakers has been huge. I've done so using two different subwoofers and three different pairs of main speakers (one set of floorstanding speakers and two sets of standmounts). Limiting what a subwoofer does in my room/system to just the bottom octave would be a colossal waste.

Thinking of pairing my standmounts with a sub. What do you recommend as a good transition point for the high-pass filter? I'm using the speakers for music-only.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by eisenb11.
Moderators: devteam