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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 3 months ago #47492

  • entripy
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Adding the gain anywhere in the gain structure is fine as long as the DSP doesn;t clip, so in Dirac is fine yes.
You won't lose dynamic range no matter where you change gain.
Theoretically you maximise noise figure by having gain as early in the chain as possible, this will not usually be an issue wth the digital resolution of the SHD. With DSP its more about positioning gain to avoid clipping.
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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 3 months ago #47493

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Thanyou to the Maximus Reply-icus

Over and out
Greg

I noticed you said you were a Bass player too. I've played bass for a long time (and probalby not very well) and always in a non-preofessional capacity. I've also MADE five Electric Guitars. Two Lead Guitars and Three Basses. Five Sring Fretted and Fretless and a Four String Fretless.
I've called them all "YETI" and given my bases the name "Abominable", while the Elctric Guitars I named "Venom". Again all for pleasure, no profit made. Shucks!

You'll actually see pics of them on the Facebook Page "Yeti Guitars". Like I said I'm not selling and it's not a business...

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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 3 months ago #47494

  • jaaptina
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My current favorite target curve. Not textbook.


Like that better than something like this.
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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 3 months ago #47496

  • Greg the Yeti
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Hi Jaaptina.
Interesting, but I really don't understand why you'd want to design them like this.

What's that violent dip at 100 Hz for?
The best I can think of for a reason for your curve is the comment that some people make that they like "The Sound of my Speakers" - so don't change it.
Fine - if that's what you want - but it isn't Fidelity and it isn't Hi-Fi! Sorry! - BIG SORRY!

I can tell you it's a fault either in your Speakers or in your Room! That dip should not be there and will be spoiling your sound! This is what Dirac Live and miniDSP are there to CORRECT!

I know that one of the reasons that Amplifier Manufacturers have given for having no "Tone Controls" and especially no "Graphic Equaliszers" is that they can so easily spoil the sound. The top curve reminds me of "Graphic Equalizer" settings.

- - - -

I'm VERY happy with my Target Curves. The focus in mine is on FIDELITY, while restoring the Bass Guitar Level (as much as possible) to the level that a Concert Sound Engineer would have used.

The whole idea of Dirac live is to correct for inadequacies in the Listening Room AND often in the Speakers. These curves look as if all their doing is "Smoothing" a Bad response to make it a "Smoothed Bad Response". Sorry! - BIG SORRY!

If you look at my Target response for the 7db Bass Boost, you will see that there is for example a HIDEOUS spike up near 20kHz. I've sacrificed a little of the high end to make sure that NONE of that spike ever comes out of the Speaker!!

Yet my Dali Oberon 5's STILL have their glorious Cristal Clear, Glasss Like Midrange and Treble. Yes I LIKE my Oberon 5's, but it's worth correcting a clear fault. I'm not blaming the Dali Oberons for that spike! I think it's more likely that this is the Hard reflective nature of my Cave Walls and the Ceramic Tile Floor? But whatever is behind that NASTY spike it had to - and SHOULD go!

Have another look at MY target above. It's really great for Rock, Latin, Pop, Jazz, Club (EVEN for Classical!!). You've got four Pre-sets and time to try out new ideas. Give my Target Curve a Blast and see if you like it. I think you might?

And if you do like it I've uploaded above all four of my Target Curves as the actual text "control files" - for 3db, 5db 7db and 9 db Bass Boost. You wouldn't have to do much to try them out. You can just copy them into the relevant folder in your USER area and "Load" them into a project. (Look at them first to confirm that there's no nasty code or COVID-19 Virus there! - or get your Anti-Virus to check them!) When uploaded they were free of such nasties.

- NB - NB -

You WILL need to adjust the Lowest frequencies, because it looks like you have no sub and your setup only goes down to about 45Hz, while mine is set up to be virtually flat down to 22 Hz. For your setup you could go into the text file and just change where it says
"BREAKPOINTS
22.0 0.0"
to
"BREAKPOINTS
45.0 0.0"
Without the quotation marks of course! A change of only two numbers!

Then also check that you have a "Subsonic Filter" set up for Frequencies below about 45 - to stop Loud Bass notes damaging the Speaker Woofers. That's in the SHD Plugin. We ARE talking about Boosted Bass.

The result WILL sound quieter than your Target Files! You'll have to turn up your volume a bit!

- - - - - - -

If you don't want to ruin one of your exitisting "Project Files", then simply copy one of your "Projects", then rename it adding something like " - experiment". and use that. You can always delete that if you don't like the result!

Try the 7db first if you like - it's what I find works on most music (even on Classical!) But if you reckon that I'm a "Bass-Head" and are cautious about that, then just try the 5db Bass Boost instead.

For any Bass Line more interesting than the "Stomp Stomp Stomp" of some Pop and Club, you'll find that the whole area of the Frequencies that are used by the Bass Guitar "Root Notes" (up to 200 Hz) should be as FLAT as you can get it. This is especially true of a Walking Bass Line! ALL the notes of a Walking Bass Line should have the same Volume!!!

I don't go with the idea which seems to be in vogue here on this Forum for a "Humpback Camel" approach to the Bass Frequencies. Nor for a "Falling Midrange and Treble. Not at all! Flat with Fidelity to the Music - just louder Bass Guitar - That's me!

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Last edit: by Greg the Yeti. Reason: 2nd ERROR!

Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 3 months ago #47502

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The dip at 100Hz is a room node. I guess everybody got peaks and valleys like I do. But I have a small room so it might be worse. Dirac can only corrects a deep valley this (without distortion) when I lower the whole target curve. Than you get something like the second image.
With Dirac I got rid of the peak at 55hz and that's what matters most.

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Last edit: by jaaptina.

Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 3 months ago #47503

  • entripy
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Dirac will be able to correct a room mode dip up 10dB deep. It won't be able to correct Speaker Boundary Interference Response because those dips are caused by cancellation of reflected frequencies. In the latter case it doesn't matter how much extra you output because more just reflects back off walls and you get the same large amount of cancellation. The only way to correct such SBIR dips is with subs placed in corners, something I've had to do myself.

However, regardless of whether Dirac can or can't correct a dip, I see no reason to make the target follow such dips.

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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47504

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Of course there is nothing stopping a room mode being at the same frequency as an SBIR cancellation if you are unlucky. You can detect which one is the problem by moving the speakers. Room mode frequencies will not change, SBIR frequencies may change. This is because room modes are only dependent on room dimensions, SBIR frequencies depend of the distances between speakers and room boundaries. I say SBIR frequencies may change rather than will change because it depends which boundaries are the problem and whether you change the distance to the appropriate boundary. With walls you probably will but if the floor or ceiling is involved you probably won't.

This is why a sub in a corner is a typical solution for SBIR. Being in the corners means the distances to two walls are very small, pushing SBIR cancellations way up the frequency range. Distances to the two other walls are increased, lowering those SBIR frequencies. A sub in the centre of a wall is worst for SBIR because the distances to two walls are identical so two SBIR cancellation frequencies are identical. Any time SBIR frequencies collide with themselves or room mode frequencies is not ideal. This is also why speaker positioning is so important. As well as balancing excitation of room modes you are also changing SBIR frequencies.

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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47505

  • Greg the Yeti
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Hi Jaaptina,
I see you've been answered by Entripy. I'll endorse everything that Entripy said. He's the one who helped me with my question...

I'd just like to add to that:-

You said "Dirac can only corrects a deep valley this (without distortion) when I lower the whole target curve. "

But you HAVEN'T lowered the WHOLE curve! What you HAVE done is "FOLLOWED the curve by a specified number of decibels". Therefore NOTHING has been changed, nothing has been corrected!

I urge you to try a Totally Flat Target curve and see what Dirac says it can do.

If you load up a blank Project and either leave Dirac's "Default" Target curve, or set a Totally Flat Target Curve .
Then It will SHOW you by the "Average Spectrum After".
That isn't a measurement, but what DIRAC thinks it can do for yolur situation!

I'm confident it would sound better than either of your two curves!

On Forums not everyone can be trusted, but you can trust Entripy. S/He seems to know what s/he is talking about!!

Regards Greg

TRY something different!
Try the Dirac Default!
Try one of my Target curves (correcting the Low end to match the Lowest notes your system can cope with).
But try something different to THAT!

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Last edit: by Greg the Yeti. Reason: Style and Spelling

Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47507

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Hi Jaaptina.
A later addition to my comment above.

When you said that "Dirac can only corrects a deep valley this (without distortion) when I lower the whole target curve. "
AND this waas confirmed by Entripy (there's no beating Entropy - sorry - Physicists Joke)

I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. (Please correct me Entripy if I'm wrong)

What I think that actually means is that if we ask unreasonable demands of DIRAC in our Target curves, that it will simply NOT OBLIGE!
It will SHOW us in the anticipated "Average Spectrum (after)" exactly WHAT it has achieved and what it COULD NOT DO.

I think the 10 db rule is DIRAC's rule. What it will REFUSE to do! It's an explanation of why sometimes the "Average SPectrum (after)" does not fulfill our "Wildest Dreams"!

So I would say Design yourself a MUCH MUCH better curve and DIRAC (like the Oracle at Delphi) will tell you the future posibilities...

And about those Target Designs. There are a few ways to go about that:-

1) The easiest - Simply accept the Dirac Default Target Curve. It's a fairly smooth Slope. Almost straight but tilted with Bass UP a few db and Treble DOWN a few db. I don't like it but - whey - give it a go!

2) A totally Straight and Flat Line. This would theoretically give you the EXACT sound that the Recording Engineer Intended. I don't like that either, but - whey - give it a go!

3) Various Target Curves that you will find on this forum. Not eveybody on this forum knows what they're doing in this regard and I don't like ANY of the Curves I've seen shared on this forum, but - whey - give them a whirl if you like!

4) My Curves are doing exactly what I specified in my Design.
They all consist of Two Plateau's. One for the Bass Guitar and the other for "Everything Else". These Plateau's are TOTALLY FLAT and LEVEL!
The only difference between them is that they differ in the AMOUNT of BOOST given to the Bass Guitar end.

The Upper Flat Plateau, gives you the "Sound of your Speakers" but with many of the defects removed. If you bought good speakers it will sound FANTASTIC. If you were on a budget it will at LEAST be an improvement!

The LOWER Flat Plateau gives you Bass Notes that are Boosted up to the levels that you would expect in a live concert, rather than those that a timid Sound Engineer "Laid in". But whatever the Boost you choose, ALL the Bass Notes will come out with a similar volume.

Again it can't give you Bass Extension that your speakers simply don't have, but it will always sound better.

I've told you the Design Critieria, which are simple and logical. It's your choice!

Regards Greg

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Last edit: by Greg the Yeti. Reason: Correction for style

Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47508

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Greg said : 2) A totally Straight and Flat Line. This would theoretically give you the EXACT sound that the Recording Engineer Intended. I don't like that either, but - whey - give it a go!

It probably wouldn't actually unless perhaps your system was outdoors. If I recall correctly small rooms tend to tilt the response compared to anechoic chambers where speakers are tested so the Dirac default tilted target is intended to cancel the tilt of small rooms. A perfectly horizontal target allows the room tilt to affect what you hear still.

Now it's all a bit approximate, not every room is small and not every small room has the same tilt. But it's a reasonable average starting point for typical rooms. It sounds fine here but I do have a lot of acoustic treatment too.

So the slight bass boost of the Dirac default target is sort of doing a slight amount of what your linear piecewise target is doing but without the transition between two discrete ranges. Many classic 2-way studio monitors had a similar two step tilt approximation, typically by allowing several settings for tweeter level. Like yourself I'm mainly interested in Dirac controlling the bass and I do like to have enough, but I find I get that with the default tilt.

The other point is that any similar target will sound very strange after years of listening to your uncontrolled room so some people tweak the target to let their speaker voicing remain whilst trying to let Dirac deal with room modes. Personally I think folk should just listen for a few days or weeks and not tweak their targets too quickly. It really can be a shock to the ear/brain combination to hear what you should have been hearing all along, but weren't. It only took a few days for me to be convinced but I had doubts about the sound for those few days. Now if I turn Dirac off it sounds awful and I have no idea how I ever put up with it :)
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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47509

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Hi Entripy,
On this point we'll have to disagree!

Dirac Measures the Response of your Room and then makes it's adjustments. The ROOM response is already a part of the equation and putting it in again is trying to say 2 x 4 = 4, when we all know that 2 x 4 = 8!

The Dirac "Tilted" Mean Acceptance Curve, is precisely that, an accounting for TASTE of the average listener and NOT for the Room Characteristics - WHICH HAVE ALREADY BEEN COMPENSATED FOR.

I'm sorry to disagree so firmly with you. But shere LOGIC tells me on this, that I'm the one who is right here! Sorry!

Regrds Greg

I have heard this one before - and sorry it's just wrong! It's just sloppy thinking! Sorry - I also trained in Logic and Philosophy.

YES - I'm sure there are some limits with how well Dirac can model our Requested Target Curve. We see this in the small variations above and below the line, but NO, not even if DIRAC say that that's what it for. This is just plain WRONG!

The Tilted Line is a Mean Acceptance/Taste Curve.

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Last edit: by Greg the Yeti.

Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47510

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Uhm.... the measured in-room response tends towards the power response of the speaker (which is usually not flat), whereas the on-axis anechoic response is (usually) considered ideally flat. The default Dirac target represents the former, which is what it should do.

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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47511

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Hi again Entripy.
Sorry for that, but I won't back down when I KNOW that I'm right!

Yes I think I HAVE read somewhere in the Dirac literature exactly what you said. That doesn't make it right - and it CERTAINLY isn't!
I don''t care who is trooped out to repeat something that is not true. I will never back down on a truth!

I do respect you and thank you for the help you gave me, so I wanted to do a more detailed explanation of exactly WHAT is going on here.

For some years the Recording Industry have been churning out Recordings that DID NOT MEET WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE AUDIENCE. We KNOW this because of all the Tone Controls, Graphic Equalizers DSPs that people use to correct it!

And for some years the Amplifier Industry has been removing all tone control from their gear. Thus FORCING us to listen to the DEFECTIVE Recordings the way they were recorded.
They have argued the case on this on terms of FIDELITY, FIDELITY FIDELITY!

All of us who want something DIFFERENT to what is served on the platter have either to accept that or feel in some was DEFECTIVE ourselves.

YES - I read somewhere in Dirac Literature exactly what you said. (It's still wrong!)

But WHY did Dirac LIE?

It's fundamentally a Psychological and Commercial reason. They want their Product NOT to be criticised in terms of "FIDELITY"!
They don't want their CUSTOMERS to think or feel that they are in any way opting for something that is anything other than EXCELLENT! FIDELITY SUPREME!

So they tell a "Convenient Fiction". It's only a "Logician" such as myself who will spot that they've included the SAME thing twice in their argument. It's only someone like me who will have the sheer AUDACITY to call it out!

I don't criticise Dirac that much on this. I won't "Go Public" on this. (except here among friends of Dirac) Because - Yes - they are providing me with an excellent product and I don't want their business to suffer. Yes I would "keep quiet" for them....

But when we're talking the Design of Curves, we have to have the truth. Psychological "Niceties" and Commercial "Necessities can't enter in.

I hope this has explained a bit?

Regards Greg

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Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47512

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john.reekie - Got yourself in knots?

The simple fact is that
1) Dirac MEASURES the Amplifier/Speaker/Room response!
2) THEN Dirac COMPENSATES for Amplifier/Speaker/Room!

No techinical words (which I DO understand) will do anything other than confuse YOU!

2 x the Room Response in the equation will ALWAYS equal 2 x the Room Response.

If you "correct" for the "Room Response" TWICE then the second time it was NOT for Correction of the Room Response but for something ELSE - The average Taste of the Listeners!

Regards Greg

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Last edit: by Greg the Yeti. Reason: Addressing the person I'm answering

Target - 0d and Below or Average above and Below? 2 years 2 months ago #47514

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It's not correcting for the room twice...

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