TOPIC:

@asx77 that's really helpful of you to post the photos you have. I do have a couple of questions about your setup though which I'll ask in case it's helpful to you or anyone else. The fact I'm asking these doesn't mean they're 'wrong' but it's not completely obvious why they are what they are and so may not be what everyone may want to copy.

1. Why do you have different time delays applied to your left and right main speakers applied in the plugin? (2.00 ms and 1.73 ms)?
2. Why do you have a low-pass filter at 18 kHz applied to your main speakers?
3. Why do you have a high-pass filter at 20 Hz applied to your subwoofer?

As you say your sub-main crossover frequency is very high. I use 110 Hz and most would probably consider this to be too high. The issue for most would be that a crossover as high as you are using would lead to the sub being localisable (you can hear that the sound is coming from the sub).

really helpful to have something visual together with you explanation! thanks a lot

Ultrasonic wrote:

Why do you have different time delays applied to your left and right main speakers applied in the plugin? (2.00 ms and 1.73 ms)?

From my listening position the Sub is the furthest away. My Left is also a touch closer than my Right. If I leave it to Dirac, it will add a delay to to the Left and then because Left and Sub are not the same distance, my Left Mid/Highs and Left Lows will not reach me at the same time. Same for the Right. So I get in there before Dirac, put the mic at listening pos. 1, use REW to work out delays, add them to the plugin and then without moving the mic run Dirac! If I get it correct, Dirac doesn't add a delay... it took a couple of attempts!

Ultrasonic wrote:

Why do you have a low-pass filter at 18 kHz applied to your main speakers?

Why do you have a high-pass filter at 20 Hz applied to your subwoofer?

So when I first ran dirac and could see my sub and mains rolled off at these frequencies and in the case of the highs in a sawtooth fashion. I thought well why have it uncontrolled like that, I might as well add a filter, and not bother asking Dirac to boost in these areas. The fact that you raise the question makes me reconsider this approach and actually, next time I run Dirac I probably wont bother and just set the dirac curtains at the roll-off frequencies.

Ultrasonic wrote:

As you say your sub-main crossover frequency is very high. I use 110 Hz and most would probably consider this to be too high. The issue for most would be that a crossover as high as you are using would lead to the sub being localisable (you can hear that the sound is coming from the sub).

Well, I set this after I changed my amp from solid state to valves. Valves are reputedly not as great for the really low stuff as Solid state. Since my sub is solid state I thought I might as well let the sub do as much as it can. Despite the sub's actual Low Pass max setting being 99Hz, it does keep producing above this cut-off and I set the filter into this area. You're point about directionality is fair. Although I can't 'pinpoint' the sub's position, the bass does appear slightly stronger on one side. I've been meaning to run the set-up again with a lower point but haven't got around to it yet. For me its about letting Solid state do as much low end as poss without starting to hear bass bias to the side, I just haven't had the time to find the right point yet!

asx77 wrote:

From my listening position the Sub is the furthest away. My Left is also a touch closer than my Right. If I leave it to Dirac, it will add a delay to to the Left and then because Left and Sub are not the same distance, my Left Mid/Highs and Left Lows will not reach me at the same time. Same for the Right. So I get in there before Dirac, put the mic at listening pos. 1, use REW to work out delays, add them to the plugin and then without moving the mic run Dirac! If I get it correct, Dirac doesn't add a delay... it took a couple of attempts!

Setting delays for sub integration prior to running Dirac is absolutely the right thing to do. It was having different delays for the speakers which is unusual. Most would have main speakers equidistant to the main listening position but clearly you don't . For context I have a delay of 9.56 ms applied to each of my main speakers to delay their signal to get them to phase match my subwoofer at the 110 Hz crossover frequency that I am using.

asx77 wrote:

Ultrasonic wrote:

Why do you have a low-pass filter at 18 kHz applied to your main speakers?

Why do you have a high-pass filter at 20 Hz applied to your subwoofer?

So when I first ran dirac and could see my sub and mains rolled off at these frequencies and in the case of the highs in a sawtooth fashion. I thought well why have it uncontrolled like that, I might as well add a filter, and not bother asking Dirac to boost in these areas. The fact that you raise the question makes me reconsider this approach and actually, next time I run Dirac I probably wont bother and just set the dirac curtains at the roll-off frequencies.

I think you would be better off removing these two filters then, for a number of reasons. I would encourage you to at least experiment with doing so.

1. You can control where Dirac applies boosts at the frequency extremes by using the range 'curtains'
2. If you try to match the natural roll-off with a low or high-pass filter the effect will be additive, and so further limit the frequency extension. At the high frequency end you're probably above frequencies you can hear anyway so it's not so important but at the low end it looks to me like you'll be missing out on some of what your sub could be adding.
3. Whilst the crossover graphs you see show the amplitude response effects there are also phase effects, which importantly will cover a broader frequency range. To an extent Dirac may be able to compensate for this but avoiding it in the first place would be best. This would actually be a major reason I would not apply the filter at 18 kHz.

asx77 wrote:

Ultrasonic wrote:

As you say your sub-main crossover frequency is very high. I use 110 Hz and most would probably consider this to be too high. The issue for most would be that a crossover as high as you are using would lead to the sub being localisable (you can hear that the sound is coming from the sub).

Well, I set this after I changed my amp from solid state to valves. Valves are reputedly not as great for the really low stuff as Solid state. Since my sub is solid state I thought I might as well let the sub do as much as it can. Despite the sub's actual Low Pass max setting being 99Hz, it does keep producing above this cut-off and I set the filter into this area. You're point about directionality is fair. Although I can't 'pinpoint' the sub's position, the bass does appear slightly stronger on one side. I've been meaning to run the set-up again with a lower point but haven't got around to it yet. For me its about letting Solid state do as much low end as poss without starting to hear bass bias to the side, I just haven't had the time to find the right point yet!

That makes more sense . My gut feeling is you'll end up finding that a lower crossover frequency will work better but I'm with you on the finding time to experiment front! I'm a long way from being sure my own setup is optimal for the same reason.

I have a even more basic question about the low level connection tot my REL R328 sub. Output 3 on the MiniDSP SHD Studio is a digital S/PDIF connection but the low level connection om my REL R28 is analog as far as I understand (Lo Level single phono). Without the MiniDSP I could connect the REL via de variable line level output on my Hegel H360. I’m used to use the high level connection.
How can this work via the MiniDSP SHD Studio then?

van wrote:

How can this work via the MiniDSP SHD Studio then?

To connect it directly you would need a separate DAC.

In that case I will run the sub without DSP I quess.

Actually Rel writes about it

Following this approach means we can’t get away with digital signal processing (DSP). Most subwoofer makers import the analog signal using an internal computer, process it digitally, then reconvert the signal back into analog where it continues on (DSP). It allows for massive manipulation of the signal, but takes additional time (music is all about getting timing right) and makes it sound like a computer manipulated the natural rhythm of music. That doesn’t work for us.

van wrote:

In that case I will run the sub without DSP I quess.

Actually Rel writes about it

Following this approach means we can’t get away with digital signal processing (DSP). Most subwoofer makers import the analog signal using an internal computer, process it digitally, then reconvert the signal back into analog where it continues on (DSP). It allows for massive manipulation of the signal, but takes additional time (music is all about getting timing right) and makes it sound like a computer manipulated the natural rhythm of music. That doesn’t work for us.

That comment from REL doesn't apply to an SHD, since you can adjust time delays to all outputs so that everything is perfectly in sync.

Ultrasonic wrote:

I think you would be better off removing these two filters then, for a number of reasons. I would encourage you to at least experiment with doing so.

1. You can control where Dirac applies boosts at the frequency extremes by using the range 'curtains'
2. If you try to match the natural roll-off with a low or high-pass filter the effect will be additive, and so further limit the frequency extension. At the high frequency end you're probably above frequencies you can hear anyway so it's not so important but at the low end it looks to me like you'll be missing out on some of what your sub could be adding.
3. Whilst the crossover graphs you see show the amplitude response effects there are also phase effects, which importantly will cover a broader frequency range. To an extent Dirac may be able to compensate for this but avoiding it in the first place would be best. This would actually be a major reason I would not apply the filter at 18 kHz.

Yes, when I said your question made me question my approach the stack up of error/correction/filter in the second point above was what I was thinking.
Didn’t know point 3. Good insight as always - Thanks

van wrote:

I have a even more basic question about the low level connection tot my REL R328 sub. Output 3 on the MiniDSP SHD Studio is a digital S/PDIF connection but the low level connection om my REL R28 is analog as far as I understand (Lo Level single phono). Without the MiniDSP I could connect the REL via de variable line level output on my Hegel H360. I’m used to use the high level connection.
How can this work via the MiniDSP SHD Studio then?

and

van wrote:

Actually Rel writes about it

I hadn’t appreciated that you were talking about the Studio rather than the SHD. That clearly complicates matters as the Rel only accept analogue. Also I see the Hegel 360 includes an inbuilt streamer… You know you’ll need to have the SHD Studio before the Hegel yes(?) which I presume is driving your speakers.
Rel have always said that about the high level. They say if you take the high level then the Sub sees exactly the same signal as the mains and is more seamless. It obviously doesn’t apply any HP filter to the speakers. There are other brands of sub out there that do but like me you have a Rel. Great sub still.

When I first got my DDRC24 I didn’t like the lack of display, so I fed L&R to my Integrated amp and fed the Rel the same high level feed as the mains. Trick however was I raised the gain on the Sub to be significantly higher than the mains, then when Dirac worked its magic it went “whoa! That bass is too much, it cut it and by cutting it basically drastically cut it to the mains. It meant that both the sub and mains had frequency overlap but the overlapping frequency was much lower for the speakers so sub was doing most of the work.
It worked and solved room modes but advice from the forum convinced me to live with no display and set things up as per my earlier post (DDRC Output 1 and 2 to power amps for mains, Output 3 to Sub)

Or as Ultrasonic wrote you’ll need a DAC to do full integration… don’t suppose you have a spare one lying around do you?
I noticed the Hagel also has a Cinema Pass through… normally pass throughs circumvent processing which suggests your Hegel does some processing… Does it? And what does the pass through mode do?

r as Ultrasonic wrote you’ll need a DAC to do full integration… don’t suppose you have a spare one lying around do you?
I noticed the Hagel also has a Cinema Pass through… normally pass throughs circumvent processing which suggests your Hegel does some processing… Does it? And what does the pass through mode do?

The Hegel H360 is having a Home Theatre Max Level Input There is no processing done there I presume. .

van wrote:

The Hegel H360 is having a Home Theatre Max Level Input There is no processing done there I presume. .

For music I assume you are using a digital connection from your SHD Studio to your Hegel, so you are then using its DAC rather than the home theatre pass-through. To connect a sub you would be running a second DAC in parallel to this for your sub, so one DAC step for each output.

If you connect your subwoofer using a high-level output on your amp then you won't be able to use your SHD to apply crossover filters or time-delays.

I think I will try to experiment with MiniDSP and the sub and main speakers on. The sub is pretty close tot the left speaker and I keep the crossover like I’m used to. See what is brings!

Maybe a silly question but have you already bought the SHD studio?

Edit- ignore this. I wrote as you were posting your last and by the sound of it you do already have the Studio.

yes I bought a used one last week.