TOPIC:

devteam wrote:

Keep sending us comments if any.

Did you see mine about remote control?

HI,

I have some questions.

First, if I choose the analog version, that means I have to go through an additional ADC/DAC transition yet I don't see which DAC's you use and how much attention was paid to the analog board. Would you please offer all the technical specs and do you have any pictures available of the analog board/insides of the unit?

This is obviously a lot of money for someone to spend and I assume a lot of folks that will be interested in something like this have very nice equipment as you obviously wouldn't have the budget (or at least it wouldn't make sense to spend it if you did) to pair this with some cheap Bose speakers, for instance.

As an example, I'd like to use this with an Oppo 105 which has a wonderful analog section and I'd love to be able to use it as my only Pre-Pro, hooked directly to my amps (well... with the Dirac box in between, of course)

A lot of folks are doing this with the Oppo and ditching their pre-pros. The only thing stopping a lot of folks, including me, is the lack of room correction if one goes this route.

I spent a lot of money on the Oppo and they spent a lot of money, time, and research on the analog section/DAC's which are the ESS Sabre Reference DAC's. So I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't want to downgrade the DAC's in order to be able to add Dirac and I bet a lot of folks feel this way, so the current analog device you are offering doesn't exactly hit the mark for me.

That leaves me with the digital option. However, it maxes out at 96k and can only be used with Optical/Coax so that means I cannot pass through Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD-MA nor could I play very hi-res files without being down-sampled, so that's not really an option for me, either.

What I'd really like to see is a version based on HDMI with the option for full 7.1 so everything can stay digital, no ADC/DAC additions, no downsampling, resampling, etc, and therefore no compromises that I can see.

If such a product could exist and simply take 8 channel PCM HDMI in, perform the Dirac stuff, not alter anything else, then output 8 channel PCM HDMI, again with no alterations other than whatever Dirac does, this would be the absolute perfect product in my opinion and would be able to be used on very high end equipment with no compromises.

I realize that product would most likely sell for $1299 or more (I simply added the difference in cost between the stereo license to the multi-channel/Full Dirac license and rounded to get that figure) but that's what I paid for my Oppo 105 and I'd be more than happy to pay that in order to be able to equalize all 7 channels including the subwoofer which is actually what needs EQ more than anything due to room acoustics, in everyone's system. Yet the current implementation doesn't allow for that unless you "only" EQ the subs, I suppose, or buy "two" devices, but who can afford that?

I currently use a MiniDSP 10x10 for subwoofer EQ only (6 subs plus a Buttkicker LFE), and don't mind the additional ADC/DAC on the sub channel, but if I could add an 8 channel HDMI Dirac box for all the other channels and to further tweak what I cannot accomplish with the limited filters of the 10x10, I'd be in heaven!

Do you have any plans to offer such a product? Not only would this obviously meet my needs, I actually think it would appeal to a much larger audience than these first two products, too, due to the limitations mentioned above. The people with the budget and the nice equipment to make it worthwhile for a solution such as this and for them to do their research to even find these types of products probably aren't going to like the technical limitations/drawbacks of the current hardware design.

I'm sure folks will tell me if I'm way off the mark, though.

Last but not least, how does your product compare to the Dirac solutions available in the more expensive Pre-Pro's or if running directly from a computer in the way of available taps/horsepower?

Is this a down-scaled version of Dirac modified in any way for use on your platform?

If I were to simply use my HTPC and buy the license from Dirac would I have higher resolution, more taps, more "secret sauce" that could possibly do a better job with room correction?

I'm just trying to figure out how, if in any way, your version with the hardware you provide is different than if I ran it on an HTPC or the version in the $20000+ pre-pro's it's available in.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm excited about the possibilities here and just want to let you know I would happily pay $1299 or so if I could get a full-fledged, stand-alone box, with full quality/full Dirac implementation available on HDMI so everything stays digital and only has to go through one DAC (of my choice) and I could EQ all 8 channels.

Thanks,

--Jason

I think the price is too high from an economic standpoint. I'm not looking if I would buy it (I might, but my urgency is gone), but will my customers buy it.

IMO, Dirac Live is a bit too proud of their software and is taking too much of the pie. What will happen is that it will only sell in small quantities and then someone else will come out with a competitive product that is obviously lower price and then that will sell 10-100x as much.

Microsoft didn't get to own the OS market by charging IBM $300 for their OS. Dirac Live is sophisticated, but DEQX has been in the same exact situation, with an even more advanced product in some ways, where they can only sell small numbers of pieces and for some reason, they really don't have anyone driving the software as an actual application for real world use at high volume prices and so it remains a niche within a niche. DEQX has been around for almost 10 years now and have essentially zero market penetration. And in addition to impulse response correction, it can do up to 300dB/octave crossovers with very low delay. The DEQXed Legend Tikandis might actually be the best sounding speakers in the world, but.....people just don't care...because of the price/niche/concept. Likewise, I sold more NHT Xd speakers than any other dealer and I had to work it. At $6000, sure, the audiophiles sneered at their cheapness, but at $6000, the mass audience was completely unapproachable. So it was sucked into the giant gulf between the two extremes and died.

Also, the hardware input/output situation is pretty limiting at that price. You really have to work around it for many applications, especially those that are best with digital in, but analog out. A $500 stereo box with digital/analog in/out and a $800-$1000 box with 2x8 or 4x10 crossovers and more input switching would be more like it.

I'm suspect there are not a lot of economists at either of your companies, but look, you have a product here that MIGHT cost $200 out the door in hardware and so the question is....how many do you sell x how much do you make per piece at $400, at $500, at $600, at.....$900. If you can sell twice as many at $600 as $900, you make more money selling at $600. If you can sell 50% more at $500 than at $600, you make more money. It just seems to me that DiracLive has in mind the retail value of its software and that's what it wants and that's what it will get regardless of how the market reacts to it.

John wrote:

I think the price is too high from an economic standpoint. I'm not looking if I would buy it (I might, but my urgency is gone), but will my customers buy it.

IMO, Dirac Live is a bit too proud of their software and is taking too much of the pie. What will happen is that it will only sell in small quantities and then someone else will come out with a competitive product that is obviously lower price and then that will sell 10-100x as much.

Microsoft didn't get to own the OS market by charging IBM $300 for their OS. Dirac Live is sophisticated, but DEQX has been in the same exact situation, with an even more advanced product in some ways, where they can only sell small numbers of pieces and for some reason, they really don't have anyone driving the software as an actual application for real world use at high volume prices and so it remains a niche within a niche. DEQX has been around for almost 10 years now and have essentially zero market penetration. And in addition to impulse response correction, it can do up to 300dB/octave crossovers with very low delay. The DEQXed Legend Tikandis might actually be the best sounding speakers in the world, but.....people just don't care...because of the price/niche/concept. Likewise, I sold more NHT Xd speakers than any other dealer and I had to work it. At $6000, sure, the audiophiles sneered at their cheapness, but at $6000, the mass audience was completely unapproachable. So it was sucked into the giant gulf between the two extremes and died.

Also, the hardware input/output situation is pretty limiting at that price. You really have to work around it for many applications, especially those that are best with digital in, but analog out. A $500 stereo box with digital/analog in/out and a $800-$1000 box with 2x8 or 4x10 crossovers and more input switching would be more like it.

I'm suspect there are not a lot of economists at either of your companies, but look, you have a product here that MIGHT cost $200 out the door in hardware and so the question is....how many do you sell x how much do you make per piece at $400, at $500, at $600, at.....$900. If you can sell twice as many at $600 as $900, you make more money selling at $600. If you can sell 50% more at $500 than at $600, you make more money. It just seems to me that DiracLive has in mind the retail value of its software and that's what it wants and that's what it will get regardless of how the market reacts to it.

This post echoes my thoughts about this product. It seems like the bulk of the cost is going to Dirac here, shame they can't see the way forward, how many people have ever bought what amounts to a plugin (albeit sophisticated) for 400 clams?

Stefan

jevansoh wrote:

That leaves me with the digital option. However, it maxes out at 96k and can only be used with Optical/Coax so that means I cannot pass through Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD-MA nor could I play very hi-res files without being down-sampled, so that's not really an option for me, either.

What I'd really like to see is a version based on HDMI with the option for full 7.1 so everything can stay digital, no ADC/DAC additions, no downsampling, resampling, etc, and therefore no compromises that I can see.
--Jason

You should be considering the Emotiva XMC-1

Well, except that it wouldn't meet what he's asking for. I'm not sure anything would, though... jevinsoh, one thing with any DSP based unit that's very different to analog is that many of the specs scale linearly to the hardware requirement - double the sample rate, you need double the processing horsepower, go from two channels to 8, you need four times as much again.

Yes, it's clear that the biggest value of the package is the software. But now, and being honnest, i ask myself: ¿Using open source stuff, do i have myself the sufficient knowlegde and skills to set up a DRC based on mutiple measurements points?

orangeart wrote:

John wrote:

IMO, Dirac Live is a bit too proud of their software and is taking too much of the pie. What will happen is that it will only sell in small quantities and then someone else will come out with a competitive product that is obviously lower price and then that will sell 10-100x as much.
Also, the hardware input/output situation is pretty limiting at that price. You really have to work around it for many applications, especially those that are best with digital in, but analog out. A $500 stereo box with digital/analog in/out and a $800-$1000 box with 2x8 or 4x10 crossovers and more input switching would be more like it.
.

This post echoes my thoughts about this product. It seems like the bulk of the cost is going to Dirac here, shame they can't see the way forward, how many people have ever bought what amounts to a plugin (albeit sophisticated) for 400 clams?
Stefan

Although I'd love DDRC to be cheaper, I disagree with the price assertions above.

I'm a professional mastering engineer. I've spent much larger sums of money on individual plugins (some approaching $4000).
Dirac Live is not expensive for people in professional audio.

The other aspect is DDRC isnt trying to be too many things at once, so it appeals to me because I like clean K.I.S.S design.

Dirac has chosen the 'fine wine' approach - price your product commensurate with the respect you want the product to derive.
The company licenses it's algorithms for large sums and I'm guessing Dirac can't lowball it to miniDSP without also lowballing it for all entities which license Dirac.

Prosumer-grade DRC solutions such as the now obsolete KRK Ergo and the popular DSPeaker products also cost more than one might expect from the hardware alone. On paper, DDRC is significantly superior to KRK Ergo and DSPeaker. I suspect it will sell well into the pro audio market, especially project studios.

That said, the $2000 XMC-1 from Emotiva is an incredible bargain for the power it delivers, including Dirac.
And it is shipping soon.

I suspect DDRC will lose a few sales to the XMC-1, given it's more than twice as powerful as DDRC.

I think it goes without saying that sound engineers might be price insensitive on this piece. I will probably get one. But I might get ten. Or 100. 99.9% are price sensitive.

That xmc-1 Looks amazing, now if only they did an active crossover version instead of 7.1 I'd be on that bandwagon very quickly, it looks like a very grown up product for the money.

And it's got a display, come on MIniDSP we need a display we work with our kit......

John wrote:

Dirac Live is sophisticated, but DEQX has been in the same exact situation, with an even more advanced product in some ways

Well, from my admittedly biased point of view (Dirac Research) there may be advantages in favour of one product or the other and DEQX is an excellent product but it is a fact that as far as digital room correction is concerned DEQX is using a conventional minimum-phase parametric EQ while Dirac Live is a state of the art mixed-phase solution.

Flavio

orangeart wrote:

That xmc-1 Looks amazing, now if only they did an active crossover version instead of 7.1 I'd be on that bandwagon very quickly, it looks like a very grown up product for the money.

Remember that the XMC-1 is rumored to be limited to 48khz. The MiniDSP retains Dirac's full resolution capabilities of 96khz.

Not everyone has an audiophile-centric HTPC which can significantly increase alternative costs. At $900, this is a bargain for what you get. I see this being used in a signal chain before one of MiniDSPs many crossover products for a high-end active two channel system.

Architect7 wrote:

orangeart wrote:

That xmc-1 Looks amazing, now if only they did an active crossover version instead of 7.1 I'd be on that bandwagon very quickly, it looks like a very grown up product for the money.

Remember that the XMC-1 is rumored to be limited to 48khz. The MiniDSP retains Dirac's full resolution capabilities of 96khz.

Not everyone has an audiophile-centric HTPC which can significantly increase alternative costs. At $900, this is a bargain for what you get. I see this being used in a signal chain before one of MiniDSPs many crossover products for a high-end active two channel system.

I've no need to listen to anything beyond the 44.1khz CD or Flac files I have TBH.
I'm sure that MiniDSP's Dirac product will find many a happy home. If there is ever a DIY version with cross over functionality or at least 12s out that will stack with my minisharc I might get one.

Stefan

This is the most lively this forum has ever been

This post echoes my thoughts about this product. It seems like the bulk of the cost is going to Dirac here, shame they can't see the way forward, how many people have ever bought what amounts to a plugin (albeit sophisticated) for 400 clams?

Stefan

Hello Stefan,

I cannot give any numbers but you may have an idea by browsing through the pages of threads in the DSP, multichannel and room correction section of Computer Audiophile:
www.computeraudiophile.com/f23-dsp-room-...multi-channel-audio/

Flavio