TOPIC:

Oh OK no worries, sorry about the short response. Anyway, yes, I have not tried not using a center channel but that is how I would do it.

Either of the methods is a compromise, really, the best solution is to use a center speaker. I don't know if it's possible but it sounds as though you have a spare speaker anyway...

While I haven't really tested this theory, Dirac does seem to even out differences between speakers. Even if you have to put the speaker on the floor, it might be worth a try just that way. My center speaker is only about 12cm off the floor, not ideal at all but Dirac does a great job of sorting out the response (better than I could do by hand with the nanoAVR HD). But you might not have time for all these experiments... anyway good luck

No worries John

I'm using the Wilson Watt Puppy system for the front. Getting a Wilson center channel will be ultra expensive and will also present a challenge in terms of placement.

Per MiniDsp's suggestion I'm using a dummy speaker. A very cheap satellite speaker (loaned from a friend) which probably costs no more than $70.

I'm going to give your suggestion a try tonight


Ran

John Hi

Just to report back on my findings.

Running the Pioneer in a 6.1 configuration while running the Dirac in 7.1 leads indeed to hearing the center test tone in both the Right and Left Channel.

Unfortunately during the sweep, I get an error message number 5. Saying that there are too many clippings or what ever.

So I re-configured the Pioneer to 7.1 and placed a dummy speaker and ran the 9 measurements.

A few things I encounter.

1. I get problems which probably have to do with Edid, because I'm pressing the little "play" button on the output test page and get a sound from a different speaker. Only after I run a 7.1 film, return the Nano to Deafault (using the utility) close and open Dirac I ménage to overcome the output test page and sound is coming from every speaker.

2. I encounter edid problems (or some other problems) during the measurements (after passing the output test page OK) say, sweep number 3 , after running 2 sweeps correctly, I realize that the measurement sweep outputs sound from incorrect speakers. I usually play the 7.1 film and just let it run (and not press pause) so u can hear sound just in between sweeps. I do that to avoid Edid problems, but as mentioned half way through the sweeps, I encounter problems as described, sound coming out from incorrect speakers

As u recall I completed a full run 2-3 days ago using NO Bass Management on the Pioneer.

Last night, per your suggestion I used BM on the Pioneer (4 surrounds + center to "small", main to "Large") and ran the full 9 measurements.

As described I ran into edid problems (if this is indeed the problem) realizing that during some sweeps sound was not coming from correct speakers. I had to stop dirac re-run the film etc to try and over come this.

After finishing the 9 sweeps I listened and realized that opposed to the session I had 3 days ago, I'm now getting sound only from the right surround channel. I switched to slot number 2 (the session 3 night ago) and all was fine, switched to slot number 3, last night session, and I can only hear sound from right surround, very very faint sound from other speakers, very faint. Obviously something went very wrong during last night session.

I am a bit puzzled by all of this..

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Ran

Hi again, I guess I don't understand why you keep saying there is an EDID problem. Are you checking the EDIDs somehow?

Anyway, if it works with bass management turned off, and doesn't work with bass management turned on, logic would suggest that it's something going on in the pioneer. However, the behavior you describe is just too weird. Sorry but I'm stumped. I would try (as I suggested before) turning bass management on progressively i.e. surrounds first then the mains.

I'm not even sure why you need to set the mains to small.

With regard to the clipping error, that is very simple to solve, it's in the manual.

Im having some serious problems. I'm realy sorry for keeping posting bout this but this is so frustrating I wish someone can shed some light on this.

This is what I'm experiencing:

I'm running a 6.1 set-up
The Pioneer is on 6.1 and Dirac is on 7.1

The test tone page goes just fine.
The Center test tone comes out from the 2 main speakers.

The problem begins after 3-4 measurements.

At the beginning all goes well and then half way through the measurements realize that the test tones are coming out from different speakers. The Third test tone is coming now out from the right surround and not the sub like it should, so Dirac is outputting a sub test tone and in fact measuring the wrong speaker.
This causes very big problems as the sub test tone is different .

I change nothing during the measurement I have no idea why this gets messed up half way through.

BM is disabled on the Pioneer.

A few more important more points:

1. Since today I can't even get a first correct measurement the Sub test tone comes out from the Right surround right on the first measurement. This phenomenon is now happening right at the first measurement.

2. I took the Nano and my Lap Top to a friends house and everything worked perfectly. We took 9 perfect reading in a matter of minutes. All test tones cam from the correct speakers while the Third test tone came from the Sub.

3. I tried tricking the system. I loaded my friends program and started deleting each measurement and deleted them all. Started measuring my system and all 9 went smoothly, i.e third test tone from the sub!!

4. Tired to do this today again, but it was a no go. Once more I get the Third test tone from the right surround and could not continue measuring.

Enclosing Three pictures:
1. correct measurement
2. Wrong measurement (right surround on channel 3 instead of sub)
4. Right surround receiving sub test tones

Anyone?

Thanks!

Ran

Hi Ran, if this were happening to me I think I would have torched the Pioneer (or the miniDSP ) by now I can't even hazard a guess as to why the third tone would come from the surround, but I would note that the screenshot you posted shows the "after" not the "before" response.

I do notice that the noise level on your screenshots is very high. From the level meter, it would appear that the noise floor is sitting at -24 dB, which is only giving you about 12 dB signal to noise. If you have followed the wrong advice I've seen given on a different forum to set the input level to maximum and then set the output level to get minus 12dB, I would suggest doing it the way the manual says instead. Or, if you have a high ambient noise level, you should try and find a to minimize it. (Is it air conditioning? - turn it off for the measurement. Is it traffic noise? - Perhap you can run a measurement late at night. Is there a desktop computers with fans and hard drives nearby? - turn it off.)

With that said, the "correct" measurement also shows the same high noise level...

In either case, that would have nothing to do with the surround channel emitting a test signal for channel 3. That makes no sense at all. Will your friend let you borrow his AVR?

Sorry, but it's completely mysterious to me. I've read that miniDSP can provide a debug firmware, so perhaps another ticket? I hope you get this resolved.

Thanks John.

As u correctly stated the noise level have nothing to do with the third channel going to the surround.

Let me try to give u some more data as to what I'm seeing:

If I use a dummy speaker for the center channel and set the pioneer to center=yes then I get the correct signals.
The third measuremant coming from the sub.

If I don't do that I. E follow your instructions as to run the pioneer at 6.1 (no dummy speaker) and dirac at 7.1 (also tried auto) I do get the sound ( u guessed correctly ) from the two main speakers.
It's OK during the test tone page but once it starts measuring the 3rd channel comes from the right surround and it's messed up.
Dummy speaker=ok
6.1 = messed up.

The thing is that once I measure using the dummy speaker and store the program on the Nano, take the dummy speaker out and move the pioneer to 6.1 it just does not sound right as opposed to this one magical time I succeeded in erasing all measurements of an old program and running the 6.1 with success. As mentioned I'm not able to do this again.

This is truly frustrating

Ran

Well, all I can suggest (again) is that you try a different AVR.

As mentioned I tried the nano and the laptop I'm using the dirac with, at a friend's house with an Integra AVR and things went smoothly.

It is frustrating as I'm using pioneers latest and greatest (LX89) and not some obscure AVR.

I should mention that during the last hour or so I can't get the measurements right ie the 3rd test tone coming from the right surround and not sub EVEN when using a dummy speaker.

Come to think I'd it I can't even isolate the problem

Ran

John

Say this an AVR problem or mismatch and I get to solve this out with a different AVR do u see any problem in using a different AVR to generate the test tones and then returning to the pioneer?

I am aware of the hassle, but replacing a new very expensive AVR is problematic

Thanks

Ran

Yikes, it is expensive...! Sorry, I didn't realize.

The symptoms you describe are just too weird: when you click on the test button for ch 3, sound comes from the subwoofer. But when you do the actual measurement, sound for channel 3 comes from the right surround and not the sub? You are sure that you don't have any processing turned on in the AVR?.... oh - is your friend's AVR Atmos-enabled? I don't suppose it could be some issue with compatibility (nanoAVR and HDMI v2)?

You've tried different HDMI cables? (Doesn't make any sense that would be it but the flakiness of the symptoms is reminiscent of a bad cable...)

Wrt "do u see any problem in using a different AVR to generate the test tones and then returning to the pioneer?" - yes and no. If you can duplicate the bass management settings, it should work. Problem there is AVRs can be pretty opaque about what their settings means. Also, if the test tones don't come from the correct channel, how do you know that content will?

John
thanks for your quick reply, realy helpful.

The test tone on channel 3 does come out from the sub during the test tone page BUT things go wrong once measurements start.

A few days ago things got messed up after doing 3-4 locations.
As of today things get messed up during the first measurement I. E this gets worse.

My friends integra reliever is NOT atmos enabled mine is Atmos enabled ....not sure how that's related.

I have used the same cables and the same laptop at my friends house and it went smoothely.

As u recall I did menage a good run once I loaded an old program and deleated every measuremant.
Once doing that and restarting ...things went fine. I can not duplicate this trick any longer.

I am listening to the nano with the above and things sound great, even loaded different curves.
Of course I wish to re-meaure and do more experimenting which I can bobviously not do now.

The receiver is on Direct or Pure Direct. No processing.

I have not tried swapping out hdmi but for the sake of it I'll do even that , as I have tried practically anything.

Having heard Dirac in my house and seeing how smoothly it went at my friends house, I'm going to figure this out if it's the last thing I do....

Ran

One more thing as to using a different AVR for test tones.

I'm running the pioneer with BM enabled , I intended to do the same with a different AVR.

Thoughts?

Ran

Ran wrote:

My friends integra reliever is NOT atmos enabled mine is Atmos enabled ....not sure how that's related.

I'm just wondering if it's somehow related to HDMI 2 compatibility.

John,

If this is indeed HDMI related, wouldn't we hear about more problems like this? All new receivers are HDMI 2.2 HDCP.

Anyway, say I do find an AVR (maybe an older one) that runs the test tones correctly on my system. Do u see any problem generating the test tone with a different receiver NO BM on that receiver, and then switching back to the Pioneer?
This will be a problematic solution but I have tried (nearly) everything else.

Ran