TOPIC:

Hi,
I have a miniDSP 4x10HD running my active 3way xover system. The miniDSP is the only processor in the chain, it goes TV->toslink=>miniDSP 4x10HD=>amps. It works well. Lately I have decided to add a sub and have hit a few limitation to the hardware.
1. only 5 filters/channel
2. no more than 9ms delay/channel.
3. No Dirac (well that one was no surprise).
I am looking for an upgrade that will enable better and seamless (automatic) subwoofer integration; EQ, delay etc. From what I have read so far Dirac products do not calibrate the sub individually but rather as a whole with the main speakers. Is that really so? Is there a solution in which I can still use an active xover and have "automated" sub integration and tuning?

There is no miniDSP product that will automatically optimise subwoofer delays or crossover filters. What they do is give users the functionality to apply delays and crossover filters, but manual measurements and interpretation in REW is necessary to work out what will be best to apply.

Hi Ultrasonic,
Thanks for being such an involved member in these forums, you help a lot of people. Your answer surprised me, after all the low end is the problematic area that needs to be addressed and subwoofers in the home audio environment are not a new thing. This means that to get an algorithm based sub integration (delay and FR) one needs to either use and AVR assuming the built in RC can do it (Audessy, YMPO and such) or used computer based RC like audiolense or accurate that have a very steep and technical learning curve. It is strange that Dirac and miniDSP did not address this issue.
Do you have subs? if so how did you intergrate them to the system?

Hi TMV,
There are few pre processors  that have the functionality you are looking for. They work with Dirac Bass Control Module. I think the best implemented processor is the Monoprice HTP 1. It costs $4000 and I think it is out of stock at the moment. There are few others from Jbl and Arcam also. I think the HTP1 can automatically integrate 4 subwoofers.
Antonio

altsouza wrote:

Hi TMV,
There are few pre processors  that have the functionality you are looking for. They work with Dirac Bass Control Module. I think the best implemented processor is the Monoprice HTP 1. It costs $4000 and I think it is out of stock at the moment. There are few others from Jbl and Arcam also. I think the HTP1 can automatically integrate 4 subwoofers.
Antonio
 

That is quite a pricey alternative. It would be cheaper, more labor intensive though, to go with a computer+audio interface solution.

TMV wrote:

Hi Ultrasonic,
Thanks for being such an involved member in these forums, you help a lot of people. Your answer surprised me, after all the low end is the problematic area that needs to be addressed and subwoofers in the home audio environment are not a new thing. This means that to get an algorithm based sub integration (delay and FR) one needs to either use and AVR assuming the built in RC can do it (Audessy, YMPO and such) or used computer based RC like audiolense or accurate that have a very steep and technical learning curve. It is strange that Dirac and miniDSP did not address this issue.
Do you have subs? if so how did you intergrate them to the system?

Thanks.

As above, Dirac Live Bass Control exists but not on any miniDSP products. I'm not sure if it would be technically possible for a version of it to run on any or not.

Yes I use a subwoofer and its optimal integration is the number one reason I use miniDSPs. I first used a 2x4 HD for this and now use an SHD. As I referred to above, I use REW to make the measurements needed to determine the settings to use.

If I remember correctly you noted in another thread that SHD can't implement the filters that are generated by REW. It is either Dirac FIR or REW IIR. If that is the case how do use REW to measure and integrate the sub with SHD?
 

Yes , you can Import filters from REW to SHD without problems. 

TMV wrote:

If I remember correctly you noted in another thread that SHD can't implement the filters that are generated by REW. It is either Dirac FIR or REW IIR. If that is the case how do use REW to measure and integrate the sub with SHD?

 

No, that's not right, and you're also mixing up two different things.

For the subwoofer integration I was referring to, I use REW to determine what crossover filters and time delays to use. What you're referring to there would relate to EQ that I now do with Dirac Live. However, you can calculate PEQ settings in REW and upload them to an SHD if you wish. What you can't do is use FIR filters but REW can't calculate these anyway.

So in a Dirac enabled miniDSP unit, like the SHD, the way to go would be:
1. PEQ sub with REW
2. Time align sub with main speakers with REW. Using the alignment tool or just comparing the timing of sub vs speakers.
3. Run Dirac on sub and mains as a single unit

Is that so? if you have one sub then Dirac measures it with both left and right speakers? Doesn't it introduce errors?

Thanks for clarifying all this.
As owners of Dirac units how much improvement did Dirac calibration introduce as opposed to REW only calibration? both measured and subjective.

Unfortunely there aren't many Processors with Dirac Bass Control Module. NAD attempted to include it in the stereo amps and pre-amps,  M33 , C658 , without success (these itens were not capable to use Bass module - A NAD design error). I have heard rumours that Onkyo and Pioneer will realease top line Receivers with Bass Module in the end of 2022.
So , for now there are only expensive multi channel Processors with this capability. 

Hi TMV,
You are right.
Here it is the steps I used in my system:

1. Measurement - Individual Speakers and Subs with Time reference (four individual measurements for 2 speakes and two subs)
2. Time Align the Subs using REW's Align Tool , using slider for the delay for rear sub 
3. Aplied delay on MiniDsp and measure the Both subs together
4. I did not need to Apply Eq for both subs as mine were OK regardind bumps!
5. Trace Aritimetic both  Speakers A+B (Just clicked the trace buton and Created the A+B )
6. Time Align Kef (A+B with Sub1+Sub2  using Align from XO cursor.
7. After the MiniDsp's bass management , Start Dirac Live in upmix mode for whole Dirac processing

 

TMV wrote:

So in a Dirac enabled miniDSP unit, like the SHD, the way to go would be:
1. PEQ sub with REW
2. Time align sub with main speakers with REW. Using the alignment tool or just comparing the timing of sub vs speakers.
3. Run Dirac on sub and mains as a single unit

Is that so? if you have one sub then Dirac measures it with both left and right speakers? Doesn't it introduce errors?

Thanks for clarifying all this.
As owners of Dirac units how much improvement did Dirac calibration introduce as opposed to REW only calibration? both measured and subjective.


 

Regarding "one sub" question. In Mini DSP routing matrix, you have to rout both channes to the sub, to treat it as "L+R Sub". Dirac sees it as Speakers+Sub as a whole, so no problems.

The results in Rew/SHD Bass management integration is excellent and the results of Dirac processing is enormous!!!!!!

altsouza wrote:

The results in Rew/SHD Bass management integration is excellent and the results of Dirac processing is enormous!!!!!!
 

Thank you for all your input. Now the real issue is if and when to go with adding a Dirac unit to the chain in my case the DDRC 22d makes the most sense. Or go with computer audio and RC with a multi channel audio interface and audiolense. Time and budget will tell.