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TOPIC: Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management?

Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46417

  • nonilolsos
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Hi!
I read on Dirac's home page - live.dirac.com/features/ that they now have released their first add-on feature: Bass Management.

As one of my main use cases is subwoofer integration into my 2+1 system I am very keen to use this when it is supported in SHD.

Do you have a roadmap item for this?
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46420

  • entripy
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My understanding is that it isn't really released. The beta version only works in PCs, not on separate hardware such as SHD.
My subwoofers are working well with Dirac 2 anyway so I'm not sure what the addon is meant to achieve
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46421

  • nonilolsos
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I know it is possible to integrate a sub already, I will follow this application note when I do it - www.minidsp.com/applications/audio-strea...integration-with-shd

But, I assume that Live Dirac Bass Management would improve on that use case, not sure how much but still - there is a reason why Dirac is releasing it as a new feature and since SHD is intended to make use of the full Dirac license I expect to see support for Bass Management somewhere down the roadmap!
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46423

  • entripy
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Since bass management seems to be primarily about routing bass to speakers that can handle it I suppose the current 2 channel Dirac may be insufficient for some. It is fine for me though, I don't even use crossovers as would be conventional, I have full range mains and just balance the subs a bit loud by ear then let Dirac sort it all out :)
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46424

  • Ultrasonic
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entripy wrote:
I don't even use crossovers as would be conventional, I have full range mains and just balance the subs a bit loud by ear then let Dirac sort it all out :)
Have you tried using crossovers? There are genuine advantages of doing so that running Dirac simply can't provide.

Also, just to check, have you tried to get some form of time alignment / phase matching prior to running Dirac?
Last Edit: 7 months 3 weeks ago by Ultrasonic.
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46425

  • entripy
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Ultrasonic wrote:
entripy wrote:
I don't even use crossovers as would be conventional, I have full range mains and just balance the subs a bit loud by ear then let Dirac sort it all out :)
Have you tried using crossovers? There are genuine advantages of doing so that running Dirac simply can't provide.

Also, just to check, have you tried to get some form of time alignment / phase matching prior to running Dirac?

There can also be serious phase disadvantages of using crossovers. I do set the sub lowpass cutoff to what looks best in REW but my mains are fortunately very good down low so the sub is primarily to fill in a few suckouts. There is no logical reason to highpass the mains so I prefer to avoid other crossover phase shifts.

Yes, I used REW to measure the time delay of each speaker and compensated for that in the SHD plugin. The effective acoustic centre of subs can be suprisingly different from where you might think so I find using REW to measure time delays gives audibly better results than simply measuring speaker distances. It is absolutely essential to do this prior to running a Dirac calibration.
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46426

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entripy wrote:
There can also be serious phase disadvantages of using crossovers. I do set the sub lowpass cutoff to what looks best in REW but my mains are fortunately very good down low so the sub is primarily to fill in a few suckouts. There is no logical reason to highpass the mains so I prefer to avoid other crossover phase shifts.
I disagree. Reducing the frequency range covered by the main speakers will reduce intermodulation distortion with the bass frequencies sent to the subwoofer, and will also reduce the demands placed on the amp driving the main speakers. I'm not saying it will categorically be better for you at all, but I would encourage you to at least try it.

entripy wrote:
Yes, I used REW to measure the time delay of each speaker and compensated for that in the SHD plugin. The effective acoustic centre of subs can be suprisingly different from where you might think so I find using REW to measure time delays gives audibly better results than simply measuring speaker distances. It is absolutely essential to do this prior to running a Dirac calibration.
Just using distances is indeed pretty useless. Something to add to what you're doing if you fancy trying to make things even better is to look at the phases over the crossover region as well. (Without this there is a fair margin of error in judging/guessing which part of the sub impulse response to try to match to the much sharper impulse response from the main speakers.)

Just some thoughts, to be ignored at will :) . For me subwoofer integration is the standout feature that has made me stick with miniDSP products rather than others.
Last Edit: 7 months 3 weeks ago by Ultrasonic.
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46427

  • john.reekie
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Dirac Live bass management looks like it needs a multichannel Dirac Live processor.

I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 3 weeks ago #46428

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My mains are very likely much better than my sub, so I should have said for my current system there is no logical reason to highpass my mains. In general I agree with everything you said. I did initially set the sub loud to reduce demands on my amp, but getting a more powerful mains amp gave much better results.

I am fortunate to have two listening rooms, both with an SHD and sub, so I have experimented with many setups. Sadly the high quality Klipsch sub I got for my main system just didn't match my room despite sounding superb so that has ended up in the smaller room and I use a cheap and cheerful sub on my main system which doesn't sound as effortless as the Klipsch but provide adequate quality for the 40Hz-50Hz fill in I need on the left channel. If it wasn't for that damn suckout I wouldn't need a sub at all.

Apart from that I like things simple these days and choosing crossover orders and types and matching them to drive unit characteristics like the good old days just doesn't thrill me like it used to. It can be a can of worms with too many variables and too many decisions to make. The main thing, no matter how you set your system up, is to enjoy music (or film) and I am happy to say my systems have never sounded better thanks to Dirac. I'm sure there are still improvments to come but I am currently too busy enjoying music to do another cal. Next month when phase 2 of my room treatment is fitted I shall revisit cal with the lastest software updates.
Last Edit: 7 months 3 weeks ago by entripy. Reason: correct typo
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 20 hours ago #46892

  • Exponential
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Hi all.

I'm considering the SHD for my 2.2 channel system. How are you guys integrating your subs if it's only a 2 channel device?
I notice both XLR and RCA inputs but only 2 of each and, I assume, that only one or the other can be used at any one time. Is that correct?

Am I missing something obvious here?
The only other option for me really is the Anthem STR Pre-amp but it's silly money so I'm hoping the SHD will tick those boxes ...
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 20 hours ago #46894

  • entripy
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Surely 2.2 is still a stereo system so 2 inputs is all that's needed, but 4 outputs are needed and SHD has 4 outputs.
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 20 hours ago #46896

  • Exponential
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I feel I need to clarify a little.

My set up is both movies and music so intended to run a cable from the AVR sub out to an input on the SHD then out of the SHD to the subs therefore maintaining the LFE channel.

Will this be possible?

The pre outs L & R from the AVR will be going into the analogue inputs of the SHD so, looking at the specs, there won't be any spare inputs. Is that correct?

How can I make this work?
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 20 hours ago #46898

  • entripy
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You won't be able to pass the 0.1 LFE through the SHD as well as the 2.0 mains. SHD is 2.0 input only
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 18 hours ago #46900

  • Exponential
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Aw I'm really unhappy about that. :(

So when people are talking about subwoofer integration, they're talking about passing a full range signal through the outputs to allow the subs to take over the low end grunt.

Would I see any difference if say I was watching a movie and I lost the LFE but gained in the full range.

Do you understand what I'm getting at?
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Plans for supporting Dirac Live Bass Management? 7 months 18 hours ago #46901

  • Ultrasonic
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Exponential wrote:
Aw I'm really unhappy about that. :(

So when people are talking about subwoofer integration, they're talking about passing a full range signal through the outputs to allow the subs to take over the low end grunt.

Would I see any difference if say I was watching a movie and I lost the LFE but gained in the full range.

Do you understand what I'm getting at?

You need to check for your specific source but generally stereo downmixes exclude the LFE channel, and so you wouldn't want to do this.

For movies I run the left and right front signals through my SHD whilst the LFE signal goes via a 2x4 HD to my sub.

For music my sub is connected to a third output on the SHD, which acts as crossover between the main speakers and subwoofer. This restricts the frequency range sent to the main speakers so that the sub does more of the work. Having got the crossover sorted (including using a time delay on the signal to the main speakers to ensure time and phase alignment), I then run Dirac up to 200 Hz to give the bass response I want.

Is your primary interest movies? If so I think you'd be better of with a different product.
Last Edit: 7 months 18 hours ago by Ultrasonic.
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