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TOPIC: Phase improved but sounds weird

Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22801

  • lbunting
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Im sure I screwed something up. Trying to correct my desktop listening position. Source is an Oppo 103D to a MiniDSP OpenDRC DA8 to a Yamaha power amp to wharfedale diamond 220s. Also have a sunfire mkIV sub, but that's off for these adjustments.

I corrected frequency response at the listening position and am happy-ish with the results considering all the room issues (hard surfaces, sitting on a desk). Thought I would move onto to try phase correction. Here's what I did (mostly followed mwillems' tutorial: Guide to Speaker/Room Correction Using Freeware and JRiver):

Took measurements in HOLM of right and left channel at listening position (near field, only 3 feet). They were essentially equivalent so I loaded one into rephase. Choose a crossover linearization and port setting that got rid of wrapping. Used slide bars to get it pretty flat. Using 1650ish taps generated filters and uploaded them to the minidsp. Remeasurement shows phase no longer wraps in above used portion of frequency response.


But...

It sounds weird! I'm no golden ear so bear with me - soundstage is more open, more atmosphere, but everything sounds less natural. Voices too forward and less focused. I recalibrated without the slide bars - only trying to eliminate wrap and not overly complicate things, but didn't help.

Am I just not used to in-phase music ? What should the expected outcome of phase improvement be? Improve focus right?

Is it the single measurement at the listening position rather than close speaker measurements?

Thanks, Leo

Before (blue) and after (red) - second go around without slider use. Turns out I used the uncorrected frequency response file for this but I remeasured with the right file and the phase is still unwrapped.

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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22804

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Hi

Would you mind sharing your rephase correction file?

Phase correction can indeed sound weird if one overdo it, correcting things that should not be corrected.
For example the dips around 190Hz, 1.5kHz and 4.5kHz in your measurements are most probably comb filtering effects, causing massive accident that are only there at a given position, and should absolutely not be corrected.
https//wavetracing.com | rephase.org
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22807

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Yeah - first time around I forgot I was working with speaker + room so got over excited with the sliders. So I redid with just crossover and port. Although port frequency is probably high - it seemed to push the wrap to the lowest frequency.

Had to redo it as the site wont let me upload bin files. wont let me upload rephase file- unacceptable extension

Great program - super easy to use! Thanks!

filters

File Attachment:

File Name: impulse-remake.txt
File Size:40 KB



measurement I corrected from:


File Attachment:

File Name: Left.txt
File Size:44 KB

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Last Edit: 4 years 7 months ago by lbunting.
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22810

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The easiest way to upload a rephase correction file is to use the "save to clipboard" menu option, and then paste it on the forum between code tags (it might be necessary to clear the measurement from the correction file to reduce its size...).
It can then be loaded back into rephase by copying it and using the "load from clipboard" option.

Regarding phase correction, it is indeed better to stick with theoretical corrections unless you can make sure that the defects you are measuring are "stable" enough to be worth correcting. In any case needed phase corrections should always be "gentle" (low Q, etc.), and as close as possible to theoretical ones (if the speaker crossover is well behaved, that is).
Paragraphic phase EQ should be used sparingly to complete what was achieved with the "filter linearization" tab.

As for the audibility, phase-only corrections are typically very subtle ones, and very material dependent.
So if you can hear a very distinct difference straight away, be it a good or a bad one, this is a strong hint that something might not be going as intended :p
https//wavetracing.com | rephase.org
Last Edit: 4 years 7 months ago by pos.
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22849

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I's not sure I understand. When I copy from clipboard it is a 16 page text file - I don't clearly see what to delete? Here is a text and pdf of the clipboard contents and I'll try to PM you a link to dropbox location of the original rephrase file.

Thanks!


File Attachment:

File Name: rePhasesettings.pdf
File Size:177 KB


File Attachment:

File Name: rePhasesettings.txt
File Size:35 KB

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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22850

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I had to PM you on the other site as I cant find any PM function here?
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22852

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Sorry, I was not clear enough: I meant removing the measurement from the correction *before* exporting it, using the "clear "button.
I will add an "save to clipboard without measurement" menu entry in the next version...

I got the rephase file and will look it up when time permits.
https//wavetracing.com | rephase.org
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22853

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What loudspeaker is this?
What are the theoretical crossover points?
https//wavetracing.com | rephase.org
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22854

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Wharfedale diamond 220's
Crossover from website 2200hz

Thanks!
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22859

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The first and biggest peak of your measurement impulse response should always be positive, and the time offset should be on that peak.

Here you need to reverse the polarity of your measurement, and then set the time offset to -26usec.
Then you will see the theoretical 24dB/oct crossover at 2200Hz, easy to correct.
Then it would be tempting to further linearize the lows, but it would not be wise to do without knowing the conditions of the measurement.
Can you do an additional measurement with the mic very close to the woofer cone (like 1cm away) ?
https//wavetracing.com | rephase.org
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22861

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Ah- I'm such an amateur! I remember reading about that but slipped my mind. I'll give it a shot.

I will take the other measurement when I can.

Thanks again!
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22865

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No problems, most of us are amateurs here, and learning things is where all the fun is :silly:
https//wavetracing.com | rephase.org
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22882

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Hi

I got the close mic woofer measurement, and it shows the same thing as the previous one: a weird high pass behavior down low, way to fast for a closed box speaker.
Looks like a 48dB/oct behavior at around 70Hz, whereas a closed box should be 12dB/oct.

Are you using some sort of high pass filter, or maybe a crossover to a sub?
What mic are you using?
It looks even worse than before? phase seems to be all over the place and I cant seem to make it any better.
You have to ignore the response above a few hundreds of Hz with this kind of measurement.
Attachments:
https//wavetracing.com | rephase.org
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22884

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I forgot to post the LF part of the listening position measurement.
Here it is, for comparison purpose.
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Phase improved but sounds weird 4 years 7 months ago #22887

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You are good- I completely forgot I have a high pass at 70 hz! I forgot to turn it off. Should I remeasure?

Mic is the umk at 0 degrees.
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