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TOPIC: Full compatibility with DTS and DD?

Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 9 months ago #13008

  • Mariosbs
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As a happy customer and owner of other minidsp products, now I am intersted in nanoavr for my home cinema :) . I have a question that migt be silly but i want to be sure before i order it, cause i am not that good when it comes to technical details.

In the page of nanoavr is saying this
"The floating-point SHARC digital signal processor (DSP) at the core of the nanoAVR provides an unmatched level of tuning of eight channels of uncompressed audio (raw/PCM)"
My question is that i can do the same if the signal is 7.1 dolby digital or dts for example? The calibration will aply also there? Or only if the signal is raw/pcm?

Thank you in advance :)
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 9 months ago #13009

  • john.reekie
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Hi mario, the nanoAVR doesn't decode compressed formats like DTS and Dolby Digital/TrueHD. It expects the player to do it. So you will need set your player to output Linear PCM so the player does the decoding. Linear PCM is the uncompressed version of the audio contained on your Bluray/DVD as encoded/compressed data.

If you post the model number of your player I'd be willing to look up the manual and see if I can provide more specifics....
I am not miniDSP support.

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-> Have you read the User Manual??
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Last Edit: 2 years 9 months ago by john.reekie.
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 9 months ago #13038

  • Mariosbs
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john.reekie wrote:
Hi mario, the nanoAVR doesn't decode compressed formats like DTS and Dolby Digital/TrueHD. It expects the player to do it. So you will need set your player to output Linear PCM so the player does the decoding. Linear PCM is the uncompressed version of the audio contained on your Bluray/DVD as encoded/compressed data.

If you post the model number of your player I'd be willing to look up the manual and see if I can provide more specifics....

Thank you for your fast responce :) .

Ok, i think i got it. The decoding is done before and the hdmi just passes the signal to the av amplifier. Very smart way to bypass the encoding licence limits of dd and dts.

My main player is the WD Live media player (main player) and as for Blue Ray player i use my Ps3. I am in the process this year to take the Ps4 or a Marantz blue ray player (5007-7007).

I will be dighlited to know if my devices can do the encoding. I guess media player might not be able to do that. If it does not can you propose me an other media player?

Thank you in advance
Last Edit: 2 years 9 months ago by Mariosbs. Reason: Spell errors
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 9 months ago #13039

  • john.reekie
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Hi Mario, no worries. I'd assume that most modern devices support linear PCM output.

According to this page - support.us.playstation.com/app/answers/d...udio-output-settings - the pS3 should be fine: "To output in 7.1 channel surround sound, the audio must be outputted via the HDMI port on the PlayStation 3 and connected a display or AV amplifier (receiver) that is compatible with Linear PCM 7.1 "

For the WD Live, I'm having more trouble finding specific info on that... I'll keep looking. But you have one there, can you go into the Settings and see if there's some sort of option for linear PCM?
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13100

  • jsteinh
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Hi john,
my player is a "VU+ solo2" (digital Sat-Receiver, Linux-Box). Do you know how to get a Linear PCM7.1 or PCM5.1 out of this player?
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13105

  • john.reekie
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Hm, according to the user manual, you seem to only have a choice of Dolby Digital or stereo downmix. You never know, perhaps they're about to update it - I'd suggest perhaps contacting VU+ directly to ask?
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13169

  • jsteinh
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I thought that all media players and Blueray players put only DTS signal out in protected mode, because all manufactorers want to have a "copy protect". Can you give some examples of media players which can play DTS-formated films with PCM linear output?
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13172

  • john.reekie
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The Oppo BDP-103 does, I know for a fact (since I"m listening to it right now :laugh: )

I went to the website of a local big box retailer and picked the cheapest Blu-ray player they have, an LG BP125 ($75). According to the manual it will output multichannel PCM: "[PCM Multi-Ch] (HDMI only)
Select if you connect this unit’s HDMI OUT jack to a device with multi-channel digital decoder."

My understanding is that with HDMI, copy protection is done with HDCP (which nanoAVR supports) not by the DD/DTS encoding. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection

"The system is meant to stop HDCP-encrypted content from being played on unauthorized devices or devices which have been modified to copy HDCP content.[2][3] Before sending data, a transmitting device checks that the receiver is authorized to receive it. If so, the transmitter encrypts the data to prevent eavesdropping as it flows to the receiver.[4]"

I don't know if that means that nanoAVR decrypts and re-encrypts the digital audio, it would seem that it must.
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
Last Edit: 2 years 8 months ago by john.reekie.
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13178

  • hochopeper
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My understanding is consistent with John's explanation above.

When I receive my nanoAVR (ordered, expecting shipping advice in the next day or so) I will be trying it with both a PS3 and a computer with xbmc that outputs over hdmi.

PS3 audio settings are as per this - manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/...ngs/audiooutput.html - so you select the formats supported by the nanoAVR (the Linear PCM formats) and deselect the compressed formats and off you go ... xbmc has a similar dialogue, described here - wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Audio_Settings - for selecting supported audio formats where you select what compressed (some are losslessly compressed remember) or that's how I imagine things going when I set mine up.
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13359

  • jaynyc
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New user here, would like to revive this thread. Curious if it might be possible to completely avoid using an AV receiver or pre-pro.

Question #1: Using the delay function in the nanoAVR, would it be possible to delay all channels that same amount of time if I was most concerned with LipSync?

Question #2: Has anyone looked at the Essence Evolve HDMI DAC?
www.essenceelectrostatic.com/essence-dig...-truhd-dts-masterhd/

Question #3: Does anyone know of an additional companion product for the nanoAVR which would accomplish: (a) Dolby Digital decoding and (b) Pro-Logic II decoding, and then output as MPCM via HDMI as an input to the nanoAVR?

If the question to #1 is yes, the nanoAVR as-is seems perfect for MPCM content (ie: Blu Ray content output as PCM from the player itself). The challenge remains how to use it instead of an AV pre-pro for Dolby Digital and Stereo/PLII sources.
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13362

  • john.reekie
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jaynyc wrote:
Question #1: Using the delay function in the nanoAVR, would it be possible to delay all channels that same amount of time if I was most concerned with LipSync?

Hi, you set the delays on each channel individually. So you can set them all to 50ms or whatever if you wanted to. Spec says up to 80 ms IIRC, I can try measuring it for you if it would help.

How do you tell what delay you need for lip-sync - is there a way to measure the audio-video lag somehow?
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13367

  • jaynyc
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john.reekie wrote:
jaynyc wrote:
Question #1: Using the delay function in the nanoAVR, would it be possible to delay all channels that same amount of time if I was most concerned with LipSync?

Hi, you set the delays on each channel individually. So you can set them all to 50ms or whatever if you wanted to. Spec says up to 80 ms IIRC, I can try measuring it for you if it would help.

How do you tell what delay you need for lip-sync - is there a way to measure the audio-video lag somehow?

this is the best method I've found- best UI
www.amazon.com/Disney-WOW-World-Wonder-Blu-ray/dp/B0045ASBLG
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13371

  • hochopeper
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john.reekie wrote:
jaynyc wrote:
Question #1: Using the delay function in the nanoAVR, would it be possible to delay all channels that same amount of time if I was most concerned with LipSync?

Hi, you set the delays on each channel individually. So you can set them all to 50ms or whatever if you wanted to. Spec says up to 80 ms IIRC, I can try measuring it for you if it would help.

How do you tell what delay you need for lip-sync - is there a way to measure the audio-video lag somehow?

It isn't really practical to measure audio-video lag. It might be possible with a computer monitor calibration tool to measure the video latency and compare to the audio latency, but the video latency is a function of the video processing in the AVR and display as well as any processing in the player (depends on deinterlace/smoothing etc).

In general what I think is best is to have a fixed video delay in the AVR set to compensate for the fixed audio processing delay in the nanoAVR and set the interchannel delays in the nanoAVR so that all channels are aligned (and add a constant to all of them if the video is lagging the audio somehow and the longest delay doesn't exceed 80ms as John says).
Last Edit: 2 years 8 months ago by hochopeper.
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13373

  • Jim the Oldbie
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jaynyc wrote:
New user here, would like to revive this thread. Curious if it might be possible to completely avoid using an AV receiver or pre-pro.

I've been curious about this myself. I have a feeling there may be one or two 'gotchas' involved, though (see below). I don't yet own a nanoAVR, but I'll be happy to speculate. :P

jaynyc wrote:
Question #1: Using the delay function in the nanoAVR, would it be possible to delay all channels that same amount of time if I was most concerned with LipSync?

Looking at the nanoAVR manual, there is an adjustable delay on each channel, but there isn't a global setting to tweak all delays simultaneously, Also, the adjustment(s) are only accessible via the plugin, not the IR remote port. Last but not least, the delay is only positive, not negative (video delay), so it could only compensate for audio that's ahead of the picture, not the other way around. It appears the bottom line answer is, maybe, sometimes, but not easily. I think the intent here was for nanoAVR to supplement an AVR or pre/pro, not replace it. On the other hand:

jaynyc wrote:
Question #2: Has anyone looked at the Essence Evolve HDMI DAC?
www.essenceelectrostatic.com/essence-dig...-truhd-dts-masterhd/

That's an interesting little box too! The website blurb is a bit nebulous at this point - there doesn't seem to be a 'buy' button anywhere, and it would be nice to see some specs - but that will hopefully change. Unfortunately, this setup might still be lacking some critical features for a smooth HT experience. I guess it would depend on how much you can do upstream from this stuff. For example, I'd be using nanoAVR with an HTPC running JRiver Media Center, which has a lipsync fix feature somewhere if I remember correctly.

jaynyc wrote:
Question #3: Does anyone know of an additional companion product for the nanoAVR which would accomplish: (a) Dolby Digital decoding and (b) Pro-Logic II decoding, and then output as MPCM via HDMI as an input to the nanoAVR?

If the question to #1 is yes, the nanoAVR as-is seems perfect for MPCM content (ie: Blu Ray content output as PCM from the player itself). The challenge remains how to use it instead of an AV pre-pro for Dolby Digital and Stereo/PLII sources.

I still don't own a Blu-Ray player - been doing it all out of the PC - but as John mentioned, the standalone players also seem to have a lot of the needed features built in; so your idea is beginning to look doable to me. Most of the extra features that an actual AVR would bring (AM/FM, network/iPod/bluetooth, lots of HDMI ins etc) are rendered moot in this setup anyway since they'd all be downstream. The remaining questions I see are:

1. Do you need any of those other features (AM/FM etc.)?
2. Are all the features you do need conveniently available in your choice of upstream gear?
3. 1. Are the specs on the Essence box acceptable (however you define that), and can we actually buy one yet?

My own answers to 1 and 2 are no and yes, respectively. Dunno about 3.

Welcome to the forum, by the way. Thanks for the heads-up on the Essence device - interesting idea. If that box turns out to be a viable choice, it would be a perfect candidate for a Full Gonzo rig. :evil: (Assuming that idea would work, of course. :whistle: )

-- Jim
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Full compatibility with DTS and DD? 2 years 8 months ago #13375

  • jsteinh
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I also want to replace my miniDSP8x8 through a NanoAVR. In this time I use a 5.1-HDMI-DolbyDigital-to-Analog-Converter and give the analog-Signal to the miniDSP8x8 and from there unbalanced to my Class-D-Hypex-NC400-Amplifier. I also need a completely solution from HDMI-signal to balanced-analog-Output!
But if I want to use the nanoAVR, I also need:
1) a converter from compressed DolbyDigital to uncompressed 5.1-HDMI (for the NanoAVR-Input)
2) the nanoAVR
3) a D/A-converter from HDMI to unbalanced
_________________________________________________________________
for point1) if anyone has seen such a converter --> please tell me
__________________________________________________________________
for point 3) jaynyc wrote:
Question #2: Has anyone looked at the Essence Evolve HDMI DAC?
www.essenceelectrostatic.com/essence-dig...-truhd-dts-masterhd/
--> its realy a nice box and if anyone can get technical infos about this pleas tell me.
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