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TOPIC: Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost

Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 5 months 2 days ago #29502

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Hello,
Guys with DDRC88-BM claim to choose custom system in Dirac system tab to avoid to boost by 10db the LFE channel. Knowing the differences between this product and ours nanoAvr-DL, I thought, untill yesterday, that I had nothing to gain to choose custom system in Dirac because BM is downstream with nano-DL .
I have checked owners manual of my Cambridge CXU dvd/player (same as Oppo 105) and Rotel Rsx1562 AVR to find informations about how the LFE channel boost is applied. I found nothing and I have no reason to doubt that the 10db boost is added most likeley by the avr (or the player?).
Yesterday, I experienced Dirac with custom system. The resulting EQ sounds different; better or maybe much better I am not sure for the moment but without a doubt, it sounds different.
Putting aside the problem caused by the fact that nanoDL is upsteam BM, does it make sense ,in theory, to choose custom system with DL for the same reasons it is recommanded with DDRC-88BM ?
Devteam, I read the manual for DDRC-88BM and you discussed this (LFE boost or not to boost) in it but not in the manual for DL. Why?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 5 months 2 days ago #29503

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What pages of the manuals are you referring to?
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 5 months 2 days ago #29505

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john.reekie wrote:
What pages of the manuals are you referring to?
Hello John,
In the DDRC-88BM manual the first part is at p. 29 followed by p.51 with this among other thing:
"In a home theater environment, a priori calibration of the amplifier/speaker system is unlikely. Nonetheless, A/V receivers and processors typically apply 10 dB of gain to the subwoofer output. In other cases, such as players with analog output, the source does not apply the LFE alignment gain and the subsequent electronics (receiver or subwoofer amplifier) is expected to provide it instead. SPL calibration is done for the whole replay chain, and may be a manual process involving test signals and adjusting subwoofer gain, or an automated process whereby onboard software adjusts the subwoofer trim level.
The DDRC-88A caters to all of these situations. If the DDRC-88A is to “ignore” the whole question of LFE alignment gain, choose the Custom System configuration. Every channel will be treated as equal (in terms of gain) by Dirac Live, and the onus is on external equipment to provide 10 dB of alignment gain – usually in the source equipment, but it can also be done in the subwoofer amplifier after Dirac Live calibration has been completed.
If, on the other hand, the DDRC-88A is to be “aware” of the need for LFE alignment gain, then choose the 5.1 Speaker System or 7.1 Speaker System configuration. In this case, Dirac Live will calibrate for 10 dB higher acoustic output on the subwoofer channel by adjusting its internal trim on the subwoofer channel.
"

In DL manual, we have only the first part in section 3.4.4 page 26.
I think that if Rotel managed correctly the LFE channel and boost the 0- 120hz signal of 10 db to compensate the gain in the recording (which I believe it does because Rotel is not an amateur in sound system) I should prefer custom system instead of 5.1 and the owner manual of DL should maybe have a note about it is'n t it?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 5 months 2 days ago #29506

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The key word here is "calibrate." This mean that Dirac Live adjusts its internal gain so that the *measured* level (from the UMIK-1) is or is not 10 dB higher for the LFE than it is for the speakers.

In the case of the DDRC-88BM, if the decoder connected to its inputs is applying the 10 dB LFE alignment gain, then you don't want Dirac to calibrat.e for 10 dB higher on the LFE output. As far as Dirac Live is concerned, the LFE level should be the same as the speaker level.

In the case of the nanoAVR DL, the input source is not applying the LFE alignment gain. (In fact, it can't really, since the signal is digital and doing so would likely clip it.) Therefore, in this case, Dirac Live has to adjust its internal gain so that the *measured* level from the UMIK-1 is 10 dB higher than the speakers. (Otherwise, there would be aligment gain at all.)

You should use REW to measure your LFE and speaker channels with both types of calibration. That will illustrate much more clearly that the nanoAVR DL behaves correctly if you do what the manual says (or not, altho that would surprise me).
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 5 months 2 days ago #29507

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john.reekie wrote:
The key word here is "calibrate." (...)

In the case of the nanoAVR DL, the input source is not applying the LFE alignment gain. (In fact, it can't really, since the signal is digital and doing so would likely clip it.) Therefore, in this case, Dirac Live has to adjust its internal gain so that the *measured* level from the UMIK-1 is 10 dB higher than the speakers. (Otherwise, there would be aligment gain at all.)

You should use REW to measure your LFE and speaker channels with both types of calibration. That will illustrate much more clearly that the nanoAVR DL behaves correctly if you do what the manual says (or not, altho that would surprise me).
Thank for quick and clear information.
A long time ago, I tried without success to use Rew to measure the result response with Dirac filters on. After my attempts, NanoAvr-DL did not work and I had to unplug and reset the unit and reinstall the 2 softwares (dsp and Dirac).
Maybe I did something wrong.
How to measure ? Umik connected to laptop, hdmi out from laptop to hdmi 2 in into nano, then put AVR to on, player to on. Then should I playback a dvd in the laptop or in the bd player to get an active signal into nano? Open Rew and send test tones via nano to the avr?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 5 months 1 day ago #29523

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Hi, sorry for the delay. You basiclay have it. There's a diagram in the nanoAVR *HD* manual outlingin the measurement connections. You don't need to keep the HDMI alive, as the laptop will do it. (That note in the manual is for when the DL is generating the test signals, which is not the case when you are doing a REW measurement.)
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 5 months 20 hours ago #29524

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Hi,
no problem with the delay: it is Christmas time maybe for you too.
I will try to measure with rew during next week. Thanks for the info about to keep hdmi connection with the laptop.
To check with Rew, all speakers beeing to small as needed by nanoAvr-DL,I will send a full sweep to the sub via the 1.4 channel (which is the lfe only in rew if I am right) and an other sweep let say through the left channel and overlay, correct? Then what should I expect if there is a problem?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 4 months 3 weeks ago #29590

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@ Renpa

Quite a lot of good info from John already. A player adding 10dB for bass management is quite unlikely but I'm sure that Cambridge could help answer that question for you if they do or not.. Worth asking them?

Without knowing much of what you're hearing, i.e. REW measurement, it's hard to comment much here.. :-) once you've got your measurements, share them and it will help greatly.

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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 4 months 3 weeks ago #29608

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devteam wrote:
@ Renpa

Quite a lot of good info from John already. A player adding 10dB for bass management is quite unlikely but I'm sure that Cambridge could help answer that question for you if they do or not.. Worth asking them?

Without knowing much of what you're hearing, i.e. REW measurement, it's hard to comment much here.. :-) once you've got your measurements, share them and it will help greatly.

Devteam

I can not get a signal from laptop through nanoAvr-DL whith REW openned.
My connections:
Laptop to nanoAvr-DL via hdmi2, nano to AVR via hdmi out and video1 in into receiver. I put tv on, receiver on, openned a session in the laptop (Asus with Win10), open REW, try any kind of signal and on the display of the receiverI never got multichannels.
What am I doing wrong?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 4 months 3 weeks ago #29609

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You need to learn how to use it. Did you select hdmi2 on the nanoAVR? Set HDMI as the output device in REW? That will give you output to left and right, to direct to any channel see the app note: www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-me...ik-1-hdmi-on-windows
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 4 months 3 weeks ago #29610

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john.reekie wrote:
You need to learn how to use it. Did you select hdmi2 on the nanoAVR?

Of course.
Set HDMI as the output device in REW?
I will check.
That will give you output to left and right, to direct to any channel see the app note: www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-me...ik-1-hdmi-on-windows

Thank for the link. I hope to try again today or tomorrow.
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 4 months 3 weeks ago #29615

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Hello Devteam or John,
I tried again without success.
When I open REW and Asio4all, the output device is Rotel so I concluded that Asio4all and Rew are correct. I select channel 1.1 (left) but the receiver does not receive a multichannel signal from Rew. No sound. I put a dvd into the laptop and playedback via hdmi2 to nano to Rotel and it worked (multichannel displayed in avr). As soon as I open rew I got no signal.
In Rew parameters soundcard, I changed Asio4all for Java and selected left channel with no success.
I made plenty of measurements with Rew connected via hdmi directly into Rotel receiver but no signal via nanoAvr-DL.
Any suggestions?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 4 months 3 weeks ago #29617

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You are saying that

1. When you connect your laptop to the AVR via HDMI, you able to take a measurement, but
2. When you insert the nanoAVR between the laptop and the AVR, you are not able to take a measurement?

If that's the case, I have no idea what's up... I mean, does the TV show the laptop screen?
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 4 months 3 weeks ago #29636

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john.reekie wrote:
You are saying that

1. When you connect your laptop to the AVR via HDMI, you able to take a measurement, but
2. When you insert the nanoAVR between the laptop and the AVR, you are not able to take a measurement?

If that's the case, I have no idea what's up... I mean, does the TV show the laptop screen?

Hello John,
1: Yes and very easily with Asio4All for each channel even an acoustic timing reference with 2 channels etc.
2: Yes, exactly.
The TV shows the laptop screen when nano is between the laptop and the AVR but the display of the AVR indicates that the signal audio mode remains at is default position "Dolby PLII cinema " instead to change for "multichannel" as usual when REW is openned and the laptop connected directly into the AVR.

Thank you. If you have any other idea to suggest to try or maybe Devteam has a suggestion?


But the sound is definitly different between the 5.1 sound system settings in DL and the custom sound system setttings. The EQ with custom seems (yet to confirm) better.
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Custom system or 5.1 system and LFE 10db boost 4 months 3 weeks ago #29700

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@ RenPa,

unfortunately not sure why you can't get REW working on your pc.. Works fine for us here.. :-(
That statement is "But the sound is definitly different between the 5.1 sound system settings in DL and the custom sound system setttings. The EQ with custom seems (yet to confirm) better. " is well known.

Dirac software 5.1 setting adds 10dB for the sub while the Custom doesn't.

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