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TOPIC: Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs.

Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27088

  • raynist
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I have Left/Center/Right speakers that can play down into the low teens and am looking for how to configure my routing so that all 3 of these speakers gets the LFE or sub channel.

My AVR (Onkyo) automatically sends the LFE channel to the left and right speakers if they are set to large. It does not do this for the center channel. I am looking to route the LFE to my center also. I configured my routing as seen in the first attachment, but there is almost no bass at all unless I also mark the LFE Mgt on for Sub out, and even then the LFE doesn't come out of my center, just L/R. I confirmed this by unplugging my L/R speakers and then going up to the center. How can this be done? This was one of the main reasons I bought this product. It seems so simple in the routing but doesn't work.



Here is my LFE routing. If I enable the LFE on the LCR it adds bass but nothing to the center.



Here is how I have to enable routing to get LFE to go to the L/R speakers.




Thanks
Ray
Last Edit: 3 months 3 weeks ago by raynist.
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27092

  • john.reekie
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1. Is the center channel also set to "Large" in the AVR?
2. Are you able to do acoustic measurement?
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
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-> Have you posted your config file?
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27098

  • raynist
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Hi,

Yes to both questions.

As a test I physically disconnected all speakers except the center. When I would toggle the LFE channel on and off for the center channel there was a slight (very, very slight) increase in bass.

I will try running onmi mic tonight.

-Ray
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27099

  • john.reekie
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I'm wondering if the center channel is capable of producing bass? Since you can measure, I think the approach would be something like turning off all processing in the AVR and nanoAVR, measure the native response of every channel, then look again into what the matrixing is doing.
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27100

  • raynist
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Good idea!

I will measure the LCR channels tonight and post the graphs.
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27101

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My Oppo blu Ray player has 2 hdmi outs. One routes through the NanoAVR and the other bypasses the Nano.

Omnimic uses a DVD for the test tones. I will try testing the LCR speakers both ways.

And thanks for helping!
Last Edit: 3 months 3 weeks ago by raynist.
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27104

  • john.reekie
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OK, look forward to seeing how things measure up. Let's stay focussed on solutions/learning ;)
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
Last Edit: 3 months 3 weeks ago by john.reekie.
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27105

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Thanks! I will update the post tonight.
Last Edit: 3 months 3 weeks ago by raynist.
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27106

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One more thought:

I was successfully able to route the left speaker or any channel other than the sun/LFE to any other channel easily with the routing tab matrix.

I wonder if there is some kind of limitation on routing the LFE/Sub to other channels? It seems like it should be able to be done.

I wish i would have tried this on my 10x10 before I took it out of my system.
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27110

  • john.reekie
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raynist wrote:
I wonder if there is some kind of limitation on routing the LFE/Sub to other channels? It seems like it should be able to be done.

I wish i would have tried this on my 10x10 before I took it out of my system.

Um, we're going around in circles. Or rather, you are going around in circles, I think I will stop wasting my time :) You have to take a methodical approach and take measurements. Otherwise, you're just wasting time.
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27113

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Hi,

What I said in the post you quoted was something I had tried before creating this thread last night.

I have not done any other testing since last night. My plan is to take measurements tonight and post the results to this thread.

Thanks!

Ray Nist
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27133

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john.reekie wrote:
OK, look forward to seeing how things measure up. Let's stay focussed on solutions/learning ;)

So I think I made progress tonight.

I spun up omnimic and did a measurement sweep on just the center channel. The frequency was flat to 14-15hz with all processing disabled in both the nano and my pre-pro.

Next I loaded my configuration were I am trying to route the LFE to the Left, right and center speakers. I muted all speakers and played the LFE track in omnimic. I then routed the LFE channel to the center and got the same response as I did above. I them tested the routing of the LFE to the left and right individually. They were all pretty much the same curve.

Here is where things got interesting. I then did LFE sweeps with the signal routed to the left and right signals. This curve was higher than the l/c/r individually as expected. I then routed the LFE to the center channel and the curve dropped down. I thought that was odd. Every time I added in the center with another channel it was destructive to the curve. Next I used the invert button on the output of the center and the curve increased.

I figure my center's woofers must be wired out of phase. I checked my wiring at the amp and at the speaker binding posts and they are correct. Tomorrow I will pull a woofer and take a look. I hope the issue isn't on the crossover somewhere.

I will report back tomorrow,

Thanks
Ray
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27143

  • john.reekie
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Hm. Interesting indeed. Excellent detective work!
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27165

  • raynist
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It turns out that my center was not wired incorrectly, it was my Left and right speakers. They were wired incorrectly at the binding posts. Very easy fix.

Using the omnimic LFE sweeps I was suscessfully able to route the LFE channel to the LCR speakers and the curve raised each time I added in a speaker channel. That didn't really solve the issue though as when watching a blu Ray the bass was barely audible.

I was able to help the situation by instead of having all of the channels at -10 in the LFE tab settings them to 0db. I thought this might be the correct way to set this up as I am not sending out a LFE signal to the pre pro. This added much more bass into the mix however it still doesn't sound right compared to bypassing the MiniDSP and letting the Pre-pro route the LFE channel to the L/R speakers (it will not route the LFE to the center even if set to large). I have been using Metallica's Through the Never Blu Ray disc as my test subject. I also did some listening using John Wick and specifically the night club scene.

Occasionally I think I hear clipping running this way with the Metallica Blu Ray. I may still have a setup/config issue.
Last Edit: 3 months 3 weeks ago by raynist.
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Sending LFE to L/C/R when not using subs. 3 months 3 weeks ago #27167

  • john.reekie
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Hm... .could you save that configuration to a file and post it? (renamed as .txt)
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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