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TOPIC: New Dirac series coming up!

New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13490

  • Olivier Marchi
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Imho, the DRC revolution will come without the customers nor dealers even knowing about it. The systems will calibrate themselves in the background like robots without any human support required. I 'm not kidding and this stuff is already selling in shops: Beolab 5...
Last Edit: 5 years 4 months ago by Olivier Marchi.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13491

  • djreflux
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And Its also a matter of what people like to spend money on too I feel.
In the home audio market you have literally thousands of people that spend countless dollars on the next cool "box". Most people would rather spend $10k on front end electronics than 10k on acoustic treatment etc.
Countless rooms I see online and in print with an "audiophile" approach, optimized to the finest details and with enormous budgets, all without a scrap of treatment.
Unfortunately audio and acoustics isn't a well understood science and it's very easily clouded with feelings and emotion of what you "think" u hear.
If your not in music professionally then it's mainly about enjoyment, buying , tinkering and listening. That's where things like Dirac and room drc are great.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13492

  • Flavio
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Hi John,

I really do not understand the proposed marketing strategy that comes out of your different and conflicting posts...

In the following post of yours you explain that the product is difficult and time consuming to explain, so that an 80% dealer markup would be necessary... this translates into 400 dollars for you as a dealer as your return for demoing it:

"Another thing I see is that these things aren't just going to sell themselves. Most people who need it won't feel comfortable with doing the process. I think making the mic and stand (how big is this stand,anyway?) will help, but it's the licensing that is in the way here.
One of the possible remedies is to lower the price on the single unit slightly and make the mic/stand an option, but then offer larger discounts for multiple puchases. For instance, being able to buy 5 for $600 each or 10 for $500 each, something like that"

So if your time in demoing is necessary as you say, and it is worth 400 dollars that should be "bundled" into the product, how does that fit with this other post of yours:

"What MiniDSP and Dirac Live should be plotting is not to build $900 processors, but how to get MiniDSP boards into every custom install amplifier or stereo amplifier on the planet with DiracLive preloaded for under $100/board"

How would your 400 dollars suggested margin for explaining and demoing fit into an under 100 dollars board?

Please forgive me for joking a bit but it is a fact that, as John Reekie said, "miniDSP and Dirac making their technology more mainstream, isn't that exactly what's been done here? The DDRC is the lowest cost standalone Dirac processor, by a long margin"

Ciao, Flavio
Last Edit: 5 years 4 months ago by Flavio.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13494

  • John Ashman
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Hi John, would this dealer be the one running the calibration, or the customer? If the former, would that be included in the price, or an extra charge? (Just trying to better understand...)

I think there could and should be many different processes at play to get the product to a wider market. Even though the measurement process is largely automated, the moment you need to put a mic and computer into the mix, 90% of the customers are going to prefer to pay someone to do it. Also because most customers won't even know if the result is the best result possible with their limited experience. Obviously if you're talking a box that has no profit margin at all, then it would have to be an extra charge, but that's just adding to the price and lowering the desirability. When a customer looks at this box, they're also thinking of learning curves and time and frustration as most people are scared of dealing with unknown computer programs.
Imho, the DRC revolution will come without the customers nor dealers even knowing about it. The systems will calibrate themselves in the background like robots without any human support required. I 'm not kidding and this stuff is already selling in shops: Beolab 5...

Well, sure, but the Beolab is VERY high priced, so it's more like a demonstration than a revolution. I would point more to Sonos where you can buy 2-way digital active speakers WITiH wireless capability and WITH a music server built in for only $400/pair and $600/pair designed by the ex head of NHT. I think this is going to be how most people get DSP without even knowing it or understanding it.
In the home audio market you have literally thousands of people that spend countless dollars on the next cool "box". Most people would rather spend $10k on front end electronics than 10k on acoustic treatment etc.

Well, when you say "most", you're talking about the 1% audiophile crowd and they don't much care for DSP. It's all about having cool stuff. I used to try to sell DSP to audiophiles and it was an extreme uphill battle. Put DiracLive in a $10,000 box with gold plated front panel and 5 bricks inside, and then you'd sell quite a few that way.
In the following post of yours you explain that the product is difficult and time consuming to explain, so that an 80% dealer markup would be necessary... this translates into 400 dollars for you as a dealer as your return for demoing it:

I think your calculations are a bit off. I suggested lowering the price of a single box and then offering additional discounts for buying multiple boxes. Really, Dirac is the one that should offer multi-box licenses at a discount so that you could buy 5, set up one for yourself and sell and install the other 4. Why NOT enlist the people here? Granted, I suppose that makes it like Mary Kay for DSP, but why not?

Also, the "dealer markup" is pretty much a myth. It's actually a dealer discount. And it is that way because in the same time a good customer like you buys $1000 worth of equipment form a company, the dealer has bought $100,000 or more, and they save the company on sales, marketing, shipping and support costs. So that's why dealers get discounts, not "markups".
Please forgive me for joking a bit but it is a fact that, as John Reekie said, "miniDSP and Dirac making their technology more mainstream, isn't that exactly what's been done here? The DDRC is the lowest cost standalone Dirac processor, by a long margin"

The issue I see is not what MiniDSP is doing, but how much Dirac is apparently charging to allow them to sell it. The software license per box is what is going to keep them from selling 5 or 10 boxes to a single customer. Acourate, OTOH, I do believe you can get the $600 software and leverage it across a dozen boxes, bringing it down to $350 per room. So that is going to be my own focus, not DiracLive.
Last Edit: 5 years 4 months ago by John Ashman.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13495

  • Flavio
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John Ashman wrote:
Acourate, OTOH, I do believe you can get the $600 software and leverage it across a dozen boxes, bringing it down to $350 per room. So that is going to be my own focus, not DiracLive.

I'm sorry to hear that but if you can buy one Acourate license and legally sell it for a dozen processors then I understand why you would prefer it, even more so because it is much more difficult to use so your consulting services will be more appreciated.

Ciao, Flavio
Last Edit: 5 years 4 months ago by Flavio.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13496

  • john.reekie
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The standard Acourate license doesn't allow that. (Per the website)
I am not miniDSP support.

"You must ask the right questions." - Dr. Alfred Lanning's hologram.
-> Have you read the User Manual??
-> Have you drawn and posted a diagram?
-> Have you posted a screenshot?
-> Have you posted your config file?
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13497

  • John Ashman
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Oh. Well, that makes it a non starter. It is like buying a hammer and only being allowed to use on your own house.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13501

  • dreite
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I'm still unclear on what the Dirac Live "proprietary filter structure" is. I suppose the mystery is the objective, but I'd still like to better understand this implementation. :)

Is it simply a combination of linear-phase and minimum-phase corrections in addition to time delays?

Dave.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13504

  • devteam
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@ John Ashman,

While we do understand that you are passionate and want to voice your comments, I think that for the benefit of this thread, the community and the people that did ask many questions (a bit flooded by the flow of post), it's good to be considerate of others. Would you agree? :-)

So I'd just want to take this opportunity to say that while we don't agree with a lot of your points (e.g. no market research was done, there is no plans for dealers, DSP isn't mainstream.. etc), we prefer not to get too much into an argument here for the sake of finding the time to answers some of the threads and good questions asked by other members who are interested in this product. At this point, through this forum, trying to convince you would be a bit pointless as quite a few people already did try to point out few comments, strong points yet it's not making much headway... :-)

I do appreciate your comments like we do for any of our customers, but I think that by now we all got the gist. Do you mind if we switch topic to actually talk about the product? .e.g. how major differences there are between DEQX (complete different technology, not even comparable), DIRAC and the benefits of the DDRC.
Otherwise, maybe start another thread that isn't Out of Topic (OT). (e.g. Dealer program for Dirac).

Thanks for your understanding and happy DSP times to all of you!

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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13505

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lexan wrote:
>> I was waiting with patience for a DIRAC hardware solution since the last 2 years, because I hate PCs in my chain.
> +1

But I'll also wait for the Macintosh version of MiniDSP Dirac Series, because I hate PCs on my desktop too!

/Stefano
heheh , sure, as mentioned earlier on we do plan to release a Mac version of this tool. It's in the works, just taking a bit more time than a Win version as it's indeed not similar. Thanks for your patience.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13506

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anlin wrote:
Is it possible to program existing miniSHARC / openDRC hardware with the DIRAC plugin? If so, will the DIRAC software be made available separately?
Also, is the DIRAC software license paired to the physical hardware, ie. is it possible to control multiple DIRAC processors with a single computer?
@ Anlin,
- If you have an OpenDRC unit and would like to upgrade it with Dirac support, we could help but you'll need to return the unit back to us since it requires an upgrade that can't be done remotely for licensing reasons. We'll soon have an offering on the website for "OpenDRC upgrade".
- Yes you could indeed control multiple Dirac units with one single computer but you'll need to disconnect/connect to be able to control a unit uniquely.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13507

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orangeart wrote:
Quick question, in the images you have a photo of a little apple remote. Assuming the unit is controlled by the vol-FP, you recently posted in reply to a question I had in another thread that the apple remote wasn't compatible, I assume you have now found a way around that then? Or is this hardware completely different?

While I am on the subject is there any way to slow the remote sensitivity down? A quick tap on the remotes i have tried results in a 3dB change which is quite a lot when you are trying to sneak the volume up unnoticed!!
@ Stefan,

Yes there is indeed support for the Apple remote on this hardware. It's not something we can provide to current VOL-FP though. Different firmware and unfortunately can't be upgraded (need to be returned to us). As for the remote sensitivity, OT so let's not dwell too much here, we can have a look at it. Please start another thread. Thanks.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13508

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Olivier Marchi wrote:
Thanks for clarifying. I find OpenDRC a very nice platform. I have been waiting for the Dirac series launch to see if some upgrade of the hardware was to come, and now its clear that the added value is more on the firmware+software side. Maybe for the future, it might be a good idea to sell the firm+ soft packages, Open or Dirac, on its own to allow users to switch between platforms using the same hardware. Just my 2 cents... ;)
@ Olivier,
It's indeed always our concept (i.e. Hardware separate from software) but this time, due to royaltee/licensing schemes we unfortunately couldn't separate it. If you do have already an OpenDRC, we're more than happy to upgrade it for you. You simply need to return it back to us and we'll do the whole upgrade. Option to be updated on the webshop sometime this week. Let us know if you have any other questions and feel free to use the contact us.

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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13509

  • John Ashman
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Well, DT, do keep in mind that I think I was on topic which is about the processor coming out, and I did make my point 15 posts ago, but people wanted to argue with me about it rather than simply accept it as my opinion. Actually, they seemed intent on arguing their misunderstanding of what I said. Which means they did point out plenty of things that were entirely immaterial to my points. But that's the nature of the internet.
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New Dirac series coming up! 5 years 4 months ago #13510

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djreflux wrote:
I don't understand what the fuss is about.
Dirac isn't revolutionary, by using IIR and FIR they can make the processing lighter on overheads making it perfect for hardware ports. It has a nice front end for end users thats simplified and great averaging/multiple measurement analysis. All they have done is port it to run on the Minidsp Sharc board. Most users would struggle to get as good a result as what this software can automate, but you can't do much else with the software.
What hasn't been mentioned is.... Are the filters generated to send to the minidsp identical to the Native computer filters of Dirac Live.
There is limited power on the hardware and I wouldn't be surprised if the filters have a few less taps/biquads.
Deqx uses multiple sharc's to achieve its multichannel power remember.

The end result is the sound though, and Dirac can sound great.

It's up to the user. If you want to run on hardware DSP, minidsp give you whatever you need.
Either a closed automated way for room correction or a more open professional route with your choice of more powerful Software filter generation such as Acourate (which can give you automated filters too). Both will cost the same amount and have the same hardware.

@ DJreflux,

Good question! what's the fuss all about? :-) Well, although IIR and FIR are indeed filters that we've been having on miniDSP platforms for a long time (and you'd find in other software/hardware platforms), the hard work is down to how you "come up" the correct filters unless you do have a PHD in acoustic and math modelling. (I know I don't... :-)
1) For one it starts with a measurement (in the case of Dirac, multiple of them). What you do with all these measurements, analysis and come up with the smart to make sure that a) you don't try to solve something that you'll never be able to solve, b) you fix the problem at its source (e..g impulse response) c) you make it easy to the customer d)All together hoping you make it sounds good. Though there are some very good software out there, that one step alone is really not to be underestimated here. That's the smart behind Dirac's solution and the many years of research, quite a few patents and brainchild of few smart PHD's @ Dirac.
2) You've got a very good point that fitting on a hardware that is low power, doesn't require a GHz proc and runs passively is another challenge. Coming up with huge FIR banks has been done for many years now. There are some good implementations out there (e.g. DRC open source) but once again, that's something with its limitations. Dirac took a complete different path at solving the problem and that's how we can make it happen. To you very good question:
" Are the filters generated to send to the minidsp identical to the Native computer filters of Dirac Live?"
Yes, we indeed implemented a no compromise solution for this one, no limitations. Without getting into details (under NDA), there are different levels of implementation to allow for different hardware resources. On the DDRC, we chose to really make push it to the highest level so you all get the best experience.
3) Finally, you do need to make this whole experience seamless. So our team did work hard to make it such that you need limited hardware (e.g. no need for external source for setup, embedded sweep), plug&play experience, fitting all the goodness of High end Dirac algorithms at its highest specs on our hardware. Of all the projects we've done so far, it indeed was quite a fair amount of brainstorming.. :-)

So while on the outset, you're indeed wondering "what's the big deal about FIR + IIR on miniDSP while we had that for the past 2 years", it indeed did take us a lot of work (and partnership with the Dirac's team) to make it happen.. :-)

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