Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

NOTE: This is a "Community" forum. Please be mindful that community members are here to help as part of a community effort. We therefore appreciate your effort in keeping this forum a happy place!

If you have a specific issue (e.g. hardware, failure) and want help from our support team, please use our tech support portal (Support menu - > Contact Us).
Thanks a lot of your help in making a better community.

TOPIC: DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel?

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 2 years 5 months ago #36670

  • Dmitry_nn
  • Dmitry_nn's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 0
After measurements, Dirac Live introduces a delay in left channel. But I do not need it, how to turn it off?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 2 years 5 months ago #36748

  • devteam
  • devteam's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 8764
  • Thank you received: 1155
  • Karma: 165
Hello Dmitry

That delay would be calculated based on making your L&R time aligned. Unfortunately you can't turn it off (embedded into Dirac Live tuning algorithm). Sometimes it's related to the position where the first measurement is made.

DevTeam
miniDSP, building a DSP community one board at a time.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 2 years 5 months ago #36764

  • Dmitry_nn
  • Dmitry_nn's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 0
In the PC version, such a button was here.

This message has an attachment image.
Please log in or register to see it.

The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 2 years 5 months ago #36823

  • devteam
  • devteam's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 8764
  • Thank you received: 1155
  • Karma: 165
UNfortunately the PC and miniDSP version we get from Dirac Research are different I'm afraid.. :-( We don't have control of any of these settings once Dirac generates a filter for us.

DevTeam
miniDSP, building a DSP community one board at a time.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 2 years 2 months ago #38014

  • JasonFoi
  • JasonFoi's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 11
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
Is this option unavailable still? I emailed Dirac live support and they said this is a miniDSP issue and out of their control. I find that hard to believe since they provide the software, but I will ask here first before I reply to them.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 2 years 2 months ago #38089

  • devteam
  • devteam's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 8764
  • Thank you received: 1155
  • Karma: 165
@JasonFoi

Ability to bypass all the gain + delay settings made by Dirac is indeed not something supported in our firmware/DSP structure I'm afraid. It would require a modification of quite few things to make this happen (ie.. new GUI, new firwmare commands to bypass whatever changes Dirac is asking). I don't believe that other Dirac Live DSP unit (not the PC versions you're point here but an actually Dirac live DSP) does this now. Are you aware of this?

Quite useful to us would be to understand why you'd want to turn off time/delay alignment. It's key to a properly tuned system.

DevTeam
miniDSP, building a DSP community one board at a time.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 2 years 2 months ago #38123

  • JasonFoi
  • JasonFoi's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 11
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
Any delay between the two channels will Comb Filter like crazy when we Monitor in Mono.

The second case is more difficult to explain. In highly treated rooms the delay is easily heard and rejected. I believe this may be because the summing of the mono component of a stereo programme is very 'clean'. i.e. somewhat similar to the electronic or DSP summing. Typically say 85% of the energy in a stereo signal is mono. The comb filtering from the delay is aweful and makes the minidsp unit useless for professional monitoring.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 1 year 2 months ago #43282

  • denver8me4dinner
  • denver8me4dinner's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Gold Boarder
  • 3038564518
  • Posts: 261
  • Thank you received: 52
  • Karma: 6
JasonFoi wrote:
Any delay between the two channels will Comb Filter like crazy when we Monitor in Mono.

The second case is more difficult to explain. In highly treated rooms the delay is easily heard and rejected. I believe this may be because the summing of the mono component of a stereo programme is very 'clean'. i.e. somewhat similar to the electronic or DSP summing. Typically say 85% of the energy in a stereo signal is mono. The comb filtering from the delay is aweful and makes the minidsp unit useless for professional monitoring.

Use a Y cord and take measurements with only one side playing (for both channels)

When it’s taking measurements the sweeps should only be heard in one channel.

If the mic is in the same spot and on a stand it will not add delay because it’s coming from the same speaker.

After the calibration, take the Y cord off the channel so both channels have the same correction going to them.

That should allow you to unlink and have separate eq ability on each channel after the fact but no delay.

The downside to this is whatever is going on in the room on the other side the correction may not match. If the room is symmetrical and speakers same distance etc it should at least be better and get you there with a partial room correction that will still be better than plain old peq.

Just an idea ,

Hope that helps

Andrew
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 9 months 3 weeks ago #45644

  • DanDan
  • DanDan's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: 0
I have to say Andrew, that is such an example of how Genius and simple can be the same.
I am an Acoustician/Recording Engineer. Long term advocate and Beta feedbacker of Dirac Live .
I have struggled successfully to implement the Digital Audio Processor into a fully Pro Studio rig.
Tony of Minidsp kindly supplied a DDRC22 both Digital and Analogue to help out. But I couldn't use this lovely solution because of the Mono issue. In Control Room we have a Zone Without Early Reflections. (RFZ). Nothing above say -30dB for the first 20-30mS. An inter channel delay is blatantly obvious and unpleasantly 'phasey'. Like widening or out of speaker effects we using in mixing.
Apple with their hardware graphics change at Mojave are causing me other issues. But based on your suggestion I will now borrow a modern MacBook Pro, run DL(2) and install zero delay filters into my DDRC.
Happy New Year.
DD
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 9 months 3 weeks ago #45645

  • DanDan
  • DanDan's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: 0
Quite useful to us would be to understand why you'd want to turn off time/delay alignment. It's key to a properly tuned system.

Indeed. I have been providing Beta and manual feedback and online advocacy for years. Despite great manners and professionalism, I am well aware that nobody but Mathias really believes in the sonic phenomenon we are describing. It is only audible in a ZWER. So come here or to Jason's CR, or UK Mastering, or Morsound.ie. It is blatantly audible.
Also, FYI, I have never seen DLCT create a filter with zero delay. Sonarworks ditto.
Apart from the purity of our Control Rooms, and the 80-90% Mono in so called Stereo, or LCR, Delays are used to Widen and create images beyond the span o the loudspeakers.
www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-stereo-widening
Happy New Year. DD
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 9 months 3 weeks ago #45646

  • JasonFoi
  • JasonFoi's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 11
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
Thank you for your replies dd, i appreciate your input. It is indeed frustrating to know that minidsp does not take these suggestions into account when designing updates for their products. Although dirac is a welcome addition to my control room, monitoring in mono is pointless, and stereo seems artificially widened. The final tuning of my CR including measurements before and after Dirac are included in the following thread for those who are interested.
www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-...o-design-tuning.html
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 9 months 3 weeks ago #45647

  • DanDan
  • DanDan's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: 0
Hi Jason, to be fair the phenomenon we are familiar with cannot be heard unless in a ZWER. Furthermore I am stumped as to any theory as to how this is happening. When we widen in Mixing or Mastering the delays are at least somewhere near Haas numbers, but the interchannel delays created by DL are typically less than 1mS, often way way less. So a very small number of customers are reporting an issue which Minidsp or Dirac cannot readily replicate, and there is no acoustic theory to suggest how it might even happen....... Furthermore Sonarworks implements a similar delay system, and I would assume many Surround systems do also. (I am sceptical about that BTW, many Pros mixing surround in virtually Anechoic ZWERs) There is a gap in understanding of something really quite audible here. Or those who have heard, believe, understand, and a much bigger group who do not. Most Pros considering DL will quickly notice the problem, thus I suggest the very small number of whistleblowers is not representative of the amount of interest out there.
I am definitely going to try Andrew's foolaround. I reckon it has to work, and our problem is fully solved. I am slightly concerned about a Y lead feeding one output into another, but not the first time I have seen such brute force Mono.
DD
Last Edit: 9 months 3 weeks ago by DanDan.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

DDRC24. What make Dirac delay off in channel? 9 months 3 weeks ago #45657

  • DanDan
  • DanDan's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: 0
I don't believe that other Dirac Live DSP unit (not the PC versions you're point here but an actually Dirac live DSP) does this now. Are you aware of this?

Indeed, and if none of your DSP boxes has delay bypass, none are suitable for Professional use.
But clearly some of you understand the need for bypass and always have done.
Dirac Audio Processor V1 had/ has bypass and adjustable delay and gain.
I haven't been able to run DAP V2 yet due to OS issues, thanks Apple. But from screenshots the plug in certainly has Bypass tick boxes.
As I said it has proven difficult to impossible to get both Dirac and Minidsp to believe that there is a problem. Instead it is regarded as an extra facility. It is also notable that each side routinely claims that the issue is in the others' hands.
Dev team, Tony, Mathias, Flavio, Houston..... we have a problem.
DD
Last Edit: 9 months 3 weeks ago by DanDan.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Moderators: devteam